Pickled Politics - Latest Comments in Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Rowshan — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:42:09 -0000

Ooops.

As debate has decended to a level of emotion I hadn't anticipated, let me try to put across a few points. Why do we get so worked up with the Muslim issues -isn't that the bigger question?? Why do you all care? If the answer is our society is turning into a less open society, then you would do better to turn your attention to er.. let's see Trident, NHS, causes of poverty but we seem much happier to scrutinise the antics of a minority within a minority within a minority. Try scrutinising the antics of majority, the powerful who have the power to really mess up cohesion, common civility and then we can look at the Muslims. At moment attention on Muslims is disporportionte.

Would Jack Straw have considered David's Blunkett's blindness a threat to communication?

Kulvinder - you made the point on disabilities much more admirably than I can...

On issue of Muslims threatening free speech - if it's open season on all religion, why don't we all start insulting , jesting all religions, then we can in fact, claim to have an open society where all religions are scrutinised.

Amir

Framing the debate as though Muslims are threatening free speech is as good as saying the BNP are representing freedom of expression through hate speech.

As I understand it - even the chief architect of free speech, J S Mill wouldn't gone as far as saying that unfettered free speech doesn't exist in this country - why should we deny this principle of harm against Muslims? Any reason? Open society or open season??

Muslims needing protecting against harmful effects of free speech isn't paternalistic unless you argue that whole basis and terms on which western liberalism is paternalistic - some would argue liberalism is paternalistic, and so don't buy into liberalism. That 's position held by libertarians.

My point is that Muslims have the right to protest, as any group do, against offensive sentiments against their religion. Why we do all get upset when Muslims peacefully exercise their right to challenge? I am not talking here about the extremists in the Islamic camp whose actions are criminal - but the actions of ordinary Muslims when they see denigration of their faith. As bloggers on this site know - there is religious protection for some faith groups in this country and not all. No prizes for guessing which religion it is that isn't protected. This isn't demanding paternalism, or asking to be treated like kids. It's asking for equal treatment and value as members of British society. Point is Muslims don't have it or feel it and are forever reaping the pain from what Osama and his criminal friends created.

Amir

On integration.....Hmmm. there is a lot of emotion in your response, not sure I do emotions... But yes, there are scores of books written on pros and cons of integration - you have a view, others don't like it. But it's not a prima facie duty for all immigrants to 'integrate' by law, thank god. Integration was dumped in the 1960s for a reason - it seems odd that young people seem keen on reviving it. Not sure what you mean by turning inner cities into little Indias . I thought this was the preferred strategy for UK tourism and regeneration - to pull in money. Money speaks which is why the likes of Birmingham and London are keen to capitalise on Little Indias, Chinas and whatever else is exotic. You're on the wrong side of money, capital, commerce - dare i say it - 'integration'.

El Cid

Liberty spokesperson made the reference to the hijab but perhaps it was meant to refer to the nikab.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Kulvinder — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:04:14 -0000

From what I am to understand, the wearing of the burkah or the veil for muslim women has nothing to do with religion. There is nothing in the Koran that asks women to cover themselves, let alone enshrouding themselves, with the exception of their eyes. It is pure tribal tradition that asks this of Muslim women, and nothing more.

Whenever it has arisen british judges have refused to sanctify a particular viewpoint/interpratation of religious practise.

To ask that western nations accept readily and fully the total enshroudment of Muslim women, without concern for the foreign nature of such a practice,is arrogant and misguided. The demand that open societies embrace and encourage a practice that many consider oppressive shows direct disregard for western culture.

What do you mean by west? How are you defining it? There is no requirement in law for them to act in a manner you say is foreign and oppressive. They are not showing any disregard for british culture in the only truely measurable use of that word.

Mr. Straw has asked that women in full veil, remove it when in conversation. His claim that it impedes full conversation is valid. Despite the fact that some would like to believe that the eyes are the window to the soul, many who choose to live openly would prefer to speak to an individual, unencumbered by the cloak of an over zealous, “religious” dictum.

Communication isn't necessarily dependant on facial expression in the manner you think. Apart from the fact we're not even communicating or expressing ideas to one another at this moment with anything approaching the contact someone wearing the nikab would have; you've ignored those with disabilities who cannot join in 'full conversation' yet can contribute as fully as anyone else. Stephen Hawking can neither speak nor use facial expressions at a level suitable for 'flowing open conversation' yet his teaching ability isn't questioned. The ability to express ideas and interact with someone else isn't dependant on clothing.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Joanne — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:46:44 -0000

From what I am to understand, the wearing of the burkah or the veil for muslim women has nothing to do with religion. There is nothing in the Koran that asks women to cover themselves, let alone enshrouding themselves, with the exception of their eyes. It is pure tribal tradition that asks this of Muslim women, and nothing more.

To ask that western nations accept readily and fully the total enshroudment of Muslim women, without concern for the foreign nature of such a practice,is arrogant and misguided. The demand that open societies embrace and encourage a practice that many consider oppressive shows direct disregard for western culture.

Mr. Straw has asked that women in full veil, remove it when in conversation. His claim that it impedes full conversation is valid. Despite the fact that some would like to believe that the eyes are the window to the soul, many who choose to live openly would prefer to speak to an individual, unencumbered by the cloak of an over zealous, "religious" dictum.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

ZinZin — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 04:28:04 -0000

Muslims are not the biggest threat to free speech but Muslim groups and organisations scream loudest for censorship when offended. Sad but true.

Imran Khans argument is that Muslims are under threat and their sensibilities should be given higher priority than our rights to offend or insult them.

Rowshun agreeing with such arguments as put forward by Khan does Muslims no favours it suggets that they are immature children who need an over-protective parent. Treat Muslims as adults and allow them and everyone else freedom of speech airing our complaints and grievances about each other is better in the long run than holding our tongue and hope the problem goes away.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Kulvinder — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:33:57 -0000

If immigrants don’t want to integrate then they shouldn’t be here in the first place. If these “poor” and “oppressed” peoples want to turn OUR inner-city space into miniature versions of Bombay or Islamabad, then they should move to Bombay or Islamabad

That isn't saying anything though, like the phrase 'political correctness' its just fluff. What do you mean by integrate? They're free to live as they wish provided they break no laws. The law is the only objectively measurable 'culture' we have. It is quite literally how we do things. Your claim to ownership of that land is not recognised, their freedom to turn their houses into little mumbais or islamabads is.

I've never understood the argument for 'integration' particularly when people start to compare Saudi Arabia (a dictatorial monarchy) to the UK (a constitutional one), those that go there obey the laws of the land as they are required to. Those that come here do likewise. Ad-hoc arguments about how you want people to live are meaningless. You don't matter.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

El Cid — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 02:47:15 -0000

Rowshan,
Who said anything about a hijab?

Raz,
Bollox.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Amir — Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:53:05 -0000

Rowshan,

(I) ‘…the debate was framed as though Muslims were threatening freedom of speech in this country’

Actually, that is how “reality” frames the debate. Islam makes very big claims for itself. In its art, there is a total taboo on representing the naked body, and, in some instances, the human form tout court. The prohibition on picturing the prophet is apparently absolute according to Sunni Islam. So is the prohibition on pork and alcohol or, in some Moslem societies, music or dancing or pre-marital sex. Free speech is regarded as a criminal act if it used to denigrate the prophet or scold the religion. Okay, fair enough. Let a devout Moslem abstain rigorously from all these. But if he or she claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible warning and proof of an illiberal intent. Thanks to three decades of mass immigration and idiotic multiculturalism, we have helped create a miasmic element of illiberal intolerance dressed up as ‘Global Civility’ (as well as a repulsive campaign to demonize Jews dressed up as so-called “anti-Zionism”). Note: That’s what happens when you fuck about with the cultural fabric of a free society.

(II) ‘I think Shami did well to expose the hypocracy in arguments that ask Muslims to ‘integrate’ (I hated this word in the 60s and hate it now)’

If immigrants don’t want to integrate then they shouldn’t be here in the first place. If these “poor” and “oppressed” peoples want to turn OUR inner-city space into miniature versions of Bombay or Islamabad, then they should move to Bombay or Islamabad. To think otherwise is to think like an imperialist. I hate imperialism. And so did your comrades back in the 1960s.

Amir

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Rowshan — Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:40:24 -0000

Not making sense this late hour... what i meant to say is that there is something very telling about Liberty defending Muslims women's right to wear hijab when others are saying Muslims are threatening British values such as freedom of speech.

I think Shami did well to expose the hypocracy in arguments that ask Muslims to 'integrate' (I hated this word in the 60s and hate it now) but by the same token we attack their right to peacefully co-exist and practice their religion.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Rowshan — Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:25:18 -0000

I thought it was interesting to hear the C4 debate on Muslims and Freedom of Speech.... Interestly they had Liberty defending the rights of Muslim women to wear Hijab or teenagers to wear Hoodies if they wish... the debate was framed as though Muslims were threatening freedom of speech in this country so I thought hearing Liberty representative ( traditionally loving of civil liberties) backed Imran Khan up on most of his arguments.

I don't have a link otherwise would've posted it.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

raz — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:58:47 -0000

Racist attacks surge in the last month:

http://news.independent.co....

Disgraceful.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

genghis — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:43:03 -0000

Please can we have wimmin with low cut tops, high heels, thongs and miniskirts.

Just that im a pervert and i would really appreciate it if wimmin were not allowed to wear veils, its spoils all my fun!

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

speedy — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:03:29 -0000

http://www.timesonline.co.u...

veil teacher suspended

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Rowshan — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:57:59 -0000

i don't understand the fuss - got bgger things to be taxed about, don't we all? Suddenly we veiled women are responsible for a lack of integration in this country - when did we assume so much power?

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

Refresh — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:13:14 -0000

This video is fascinating in its own right - but look out for the veiled home-grown Americans in Texas.

http://video.google.co.uk/v...

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

sonia — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:14:35 -0000

everyone makes a judgement on how others look - can't see why you're singling out 'British people' . its another thing to act on those judgements. yeah - that bit was definitely directed at you PFM . - the rest - well they could be 'directed' at anyone, it's a discussion forum after all- so directed to the ether i guess.

who's got issues with the 'niqab' - the full veil thing is what we're talking - well some people do - why shouldn't some muslims have issues with it? goodnes ims sure lots of different individuals have different opinions. check out the link i pasted in 241.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

PFM — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:55:36 -0000

i agree with zinzin to some extent there, however you have to ask if jack straw hadnt made the comments he would have prob just swore under his breath as opposed to rugby tackling the poor auntie.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

sonia — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:55:09 -0000

anyways an anecdote - my best friend in school N wore a hijab. when i went to university up in sheffield she went to kings. we went to some nightclub together once and boy was she surrounded by all these funny men and the comments she got - oh my god a hijabi in a club! can i have your no. and all sorts of stuff...
then when she got married back in karachi -all the aunties and rellies were busy pressuring her to take off her hijab for her wedding day. 'show your lovely hair na' good ol N refused to give in to the pressure - and apparently there was a lot of it...

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

PFM — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:54:25 -0000

was your post directed at me sonia?

theres nothing wrong with women who wear hijab expressing their opinions of wanting their sisters to wear the hijab. wether they do or not is their own decision. which elders are you talking about? the same ones who chased white women, drank alcohol and the women who sit around watching tv and gossipping? lol.

the issue is this, most british people find the idea of not being able to make a judgement on a person purely by seeing their face uncomfortable. this is brought about culture, the culture of judging a person through their appearance. in other words prejudice. they are not able to make that decision.

just as the muslim woman is arguing to wear the veil. the british people are asking to be allowed to make that judgement on the way a person looks.

and btw who are the non-english who have issues with the hijab? indian (hindus/sikhs?)

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

ZinZin — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:53:48 -0000

Shiraz i fear that you give Straw and Woolas too much credit. Your criticisms are based on the actions of one Knobhead in Liverpool and a debate over a cloth that was bound to happen at some point.

For starting a debate Straw is criticised. The reaction of the said Knobhead is irrelevant as Straw didn't tell him to do it. His reaction is his responsibility not Straws.

However it is nice to see you blame Straw for someone elses actions. Muslim fundis and their apologists blame the murders and other crimes committed in the name of being offended onto the individual giving the initial offence.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

sonia — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:44:12 -0000

oh phooey generally dress codes in all societies are about looks and judgement and conformity to some extent or the other. as if asians/muslims don't go around judging each other on what they're wearing! such rubbish i never heard - what kind of denial is that?! As if. And someone pointed out - judgement goes all ways - a lot of women who wear the hijab ( and i fully support their right to do so) express their opinion to their 'sisters' on how they ought to be doing the same. wearing the hijab doesn't take away judgement necessarily- you're talking a different kind of judgement. not aesthetic judgement - but perhaps getting into some kind of moral territory. a lot of 'elders' will judge the 'kind of girl' you are based on whether or not you're wearing a hijab - so it's hardly value free. and we've heard how some people want to wear it to signal their identity or difference. there's a lot of peer pressure out there but ultimately it's an individuals' right to decide what the heck they wanna wear. and it ain't only English people who have 'issues' about the niqab - a lot of other people do as well - all sorts of people have all sorts of issues about what others wear - doesn't mean people have to act on it. it gives me the creeps personally - but it's none of my business, im sure some of my outfits give others the creeps too. especially my mismatched socks - boy you should hear the comments..

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

sonia — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:31:57 -0000

interesting shiraz maher - only team members are allowed to post comments - ha why bother in that case!

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

PFM — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:28:39 -0000

is asking women to remove their veils to promote integration similar to asking scantily clad women to cover up as they will be less likely to be raped?

its two assumptions based on an ignorant view.

you know what deep down really hurts the english is that the majority of women who wear the veil are english converts. blonde haired blue eyed women, women born and bred here. women who have gone from mini skirts to covering thelmselves head to toe. choosing something else over 'british' culture.

women who wear the veil integrate alot, they work, they go out in the community. some women dont, they are mainly from the indian sub continent and cant speak english anyway. how about some english classes for a start?

hmm so many women who wear the veil actually speak english, work, study. what jack straw finds difficult is that he cannot comprehend that whats more important is, what is being said and not wether the person saying it is wearing a veil or a mini skirt. how much are we obsessed by the way a person looks and judging a person on how they look. by wearing a veil this removes this judgement and its something that peopl arent comfortable with.

on a society based around looks and judgement based on those looks without the person even speaking, the veil removes the option of us judging and to be honest its something that most people can not handle.

but personally i think the hijab and jilbab are more than enough.

btw at the end of the day how a woman dresses is surely her own perogative.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

sonia — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:28:33 -0000

i'm so fed up with hearing this constant bogey word community cohesion. how can one person be 'tasked' with gluing up a 'community'. Ha ha it's so patently ridiculous.

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

El Cid — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:54:30 -0000

pathetic

Re: Straw ‘opposes all Muslim veils’

soru — Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:16:05 -0000

'Dude, I’m trying to help you out here by telling you that I get what you are saying but you are not being specific enough and putting a name to the concepts that you are referring to– like “communication”, a specific garment called “burqa” ,etc'

A 'veil', in english (Arabic niqab, more or less) is a garment that specifically covers the face, it is not in any way ambiguous, or a possible reference to a burqa or hijab.

Cool wiki fact of the day:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Among the Tuareg of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. The men's facial covering originates from the belief that such action wards off evil spirits, but most probably relates to protection against the harsh desert sands as well; in any event, it is a firmly established tradition. Men begin wearing a veil at age 25 which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members.