Well, I'm with that. Best of luck with it happening.
SE
· 11 months ago
Whatabout taking a few weeks off?
The death toll will be up to 2,000 by then and it won't make me less angrier, I'll tell you that.
Kismet Hardy
· 11 months ago
Call me a cock, but isn't the whole point of political blogging just twatting on about the same issues in as many different ways possible? Because without it, it'd amount to
Israel and Palestine are fighting.
Israel is wrong. Well, we think so.
No, Palestinians are to blame. That's what we think.
We wish they wouldn't keep fighting, mind.
Yes, we all agree with that.
Right. Next topic...
tim
· 11 months ago
Israel and Palestine are fighting
No they're not! Its Israel vs Hamas!
Rita
· 11 months ago
We all have an opinion but we are little fish and have no voice. Its irrelevant what side of the fence we sit on, what everyone is in agreement with is, killing each other is not the solution.
Its the politicians who are pulling the strings here. Its the people at the top of the food chain, as always, that are responsible for the massacres on both sides.
When we have our say, we are telling THEM to stop this happening!
MaidMarian
· 11 months ago
Rita (5) - 'When we have our say, we are telling THEM to stop this happening!'
With all respect.
I think that that is actually the mindset that has led to the type of thing that Sunny is talking about. We, 'tell,' no one. The forum of internet opinion is not binding, not is it inherently of good quality.
The idea that, 'we,' (whoever that means) should be indulged on our terms is why we see so much internet bile. Yes, by all means have your say but government does not exist to legislate for prejudice or talkboard knee-jerk.
There is a world of difference between getting all worked up and translating that into real pressure. Ask StW who, of course saw Tony Blair and George Bush reelected post-Iraq.
Think of it this way - what would the internet have looked like had it been around 25 years ago, 40 years, 50? My guess is that the professional malcontents would have been using stalking horses (whataboutery - nice term!) in much the same way then as now.
By all means, share your perspective - but the internet is a talkboard. To afford it any higher status is to take this too seriously.
Kismet Hardy
· 11 months ago
Even though I'm sure I've missed its finer nuances, I'm still befuddled with this article. Why would a political blog site tell anyone not to share their opinions, however inflammable or out-of-touch or downright ludicrous they may be?! Most people with an opinion tend to favour one side, so I can't imagine how this is supposed to work if everyone agrees with both angles. Be a diplomat by all means, but diplomats generally don't have anything to offer other than a fence (and people can throw rockets across a fence as easily as a wall)
I don't get it
Hackette
· 11 months ago
You’re basically asking people to have some empathy. It doesn’t sound that hard, but in practice some people just aren’t very good at it. The biggest (and saddest) problem is that people don’t think about anything for themselves. They claim to have opinions, but actually, they will spew out information they have picked up from somewhere else. And they think it sounds cool, so they start using it. And, that is why people can’t empathise, because they have never really thought about what they are saying or doing.
Sunny
· 11 months ago
Is polarised opinion always helpful? I don't think it is.
Tim - erm, in theory maybe, but given the amount of women children killed so far in Palestine I don't think that's true in reality.
ANYWAY. I'm going to try and avoid the subject for the weekend at least.
(apart from the demo tomorrow, and the erm, pictures that will follow).
MaidMarian
· 11 months ago
Sunny - Polarised opinion does not produce debate.
Think of those dreadful BBC news spots where two 'sides' are interviewed. All they produce is one-liners and victimhood. The internet has this writ large.
Too often conflict is confused with debate. I think that the reason I/P creates so much polarisation is that if ever there was a conflict with shades of grey I/P is it. The internet, not doing shades of grey, just chases its tail on I/P.
Refresh
· 11 months ago
Sunny, I think the term whataboutery is fundamentally misunderstood. As used in this thread.
Whataboutery is a way of avoiding dealing with the hard questions brought up in a debate by bringing in other remotely connected issues so the finger-pointing continues.
Leon
· 11 months ago
Refresh has it right as far as my understanding of the term goes...
Leon
· 11 months ago
Ah just read some stuff here and there, it appears both Refresh's and mine version sits with Sunny's well enough...
Its the equivalent of 'yes but no but' for the intellectually deluded.
Refresh
· 11 months ago
Sorry that's unfair to the deluded and Vicky Pollard.
Leon
· 11 months ago
Refresh #14
Heh very true, the intellectual value is exceptionally low but then that's not the point it's to muddy the waters, cause flames wars and distract us from harsh realities. Because you know, we need protecting and stuff...
Shuggy
· 11 months ago
How about a cessation of ‘whatabouttery’ on the internet?
You can't have it. Yes, whatabouterry can be rationalisation. But it can also be a genuine reminder of context. Most blogging is shit but it is nothing at all if it isn't a conversation. Asking for the end of whatabouterry is asking for an end to the conversation and that people should listen to a monologue instead: you point something out, everyone else engages in a moral lament. Is this what you want? Then give up blogging and join the fucking priesthood.
Refresh
· 11 months ago
This article from Cif is worth a read, and could be put up as a thread in its own right. But what interested me was one of the early comments.
'Richard Silverstein
Hasbara spam alert With Israel's foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here'
'Oh no, jewish people actually fighting back....what a catastrophe that must be for the liberal, jew-haters. A real Nakbar.
Mr Silverstein, didn't your country also kill tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children when your country invaded Iraq....for oil. Of course, that may just be bad press, don't you think. But I'm sure the pictures look just the same.
While your at it however, can you point me in the direction of where I can actually find a demonstrations taking place (be it in the muslim world or even in this counry) that actually haev muslims demonstrating against Sudan for the mass murder is Darfur. That's 250,000 DEAD innocent men women and children and 3 MILLION displaced.'
Unimagineable whataboutery. The commenter accuses the US (Mr Silverstein is a US citizen) of invading Iraq and killing thousands for oil - so that as an american he is in no position to criticise Israel. I think you get the feel for where we are heading over the next few weeks and months.
I was thinking about a similar long running I/P debate on Guardian Talkboards where one commenter 'Hogwash' over a period managed to discount every nation of being in any position to tell Israel anything. The best one for me was when he finally turned on one of the american commenters for their genocide of the native americans.
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Sunny
You took the words right out of my mouth! And yes Refresh! Modern America as we know it was built upon the slavery of the black and the genocide of the brown. This is NOT a unimagineable whataboutery of history but a cold, hard fact. This should not mean that we should remain prisoners of the past but neither should it mean we forget it.
I've said several times on this forum that I don't believe in either the State of Israel or the State of Palestine. For different reasons neither states are no longer viable. The two state solution has gone past it's sell by date. What I am advocating requires radical new thinking from both the parties but before we can reach that stage, something else needs to happen. The two parties need to start talking to each and stop talking past each other. If we on this forum can show by our example the proper engagement of debate and reason, then yes we become part of the solution and NOT part of the problem.
halima
· 11 months ago
"I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis."
See calls for boycott from Naomi Klein.
"Enough. It's time for a boycott The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa"
It's been a powerful technique before - and will have ever more powerful impact on Israel's action than anything else i can think of - including the influence of the US.
Klein also deals with all the counter-arguments for why people say boycotts might not work.
She writes " it was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine."
Sunny/Leon
It might be useful to run this article as a thread - more interesting discussion of how to see change, than the usual arguments on i/p. I agree with you that the blogs aren't the space for scoring points when people are dying by the thousands. It exhausts the meaning of armchair politics .
Rayyan
· 11 months ago
- waving Hamas flags when you think you are demonstrating for peace - if you’re mindlessly just quoting SWP press releases - if you think Hamas are just a bunch of valiant freedom fighters
I've not seen anything like that on PP or LC.
As for boycotting Israel, see Naomi Klein's Cif piece, linked to by Halima.
halima
· 11 months ago
Sunny
I mostly support your calls to take a break from this. I find this discussion exhausting - and some of us already started to take a break before the 31st December or before when the more recent crisis hit the headlines.
But i think the issue of boycott might sadly be the only way forward - where political mediation doesn't work, cold business usually does. I don't consider myself part of the problem just because I do. You might argue why just boycott Israel and not Palestine - if we want to be seen to be even handed.
I'd also be happy to boycott Hamas, too, but let's say, taking the principle of proportionality as to the volume of boycotts applied to each warring party and the extent of damage each causes on civilian life. That would be fair in my books.
But having been living in a very poor country like Nepal for coming up to two years now where there are fuel shortages that cripple the country I can't see how else we might cripple the Palestinian economy, any more than the Israeli state already is.
Take a look at Burma. Plenty of tourists are happy to go to Burma, despite the human rights abuses, but then justify on the basis that the money they spend doesn't go through government channels. It's the state that's the problem, not the people.
Boyo
· 11 months ago
Whataboutery may be inconvenient to some, but I think context is important. I agree that it should not be used to excuse wrong-doings now, but contextually it can ask us important questions - about why this conflict is receiving so much focus, what are its root causes, etc.
Whataboutery is in fact the elephant in the living room for both the cheerleaders of Hamas and Israel - both wishing to demonise the other - while ignoring that both are just different sides of the same coin, brutalised by forces largely beyond their control.
If you want something to demonstrate about, why not march on the Iranian, Syrian and American embassies, demanding they broker peace? It might deprive you of your demons, but at least it could actually achieve something.
Boyo
· 11 months ago
As for boycotts etc, I find it astonishing that Israel generates so much liberal ire - yes, let's make it the new South Africa! - when only a couple of years ago America was slaughtering so many more innocent Arab women and children in an entirely unprovoked attack. Where was the boycott then?
Not only did we project our own sins on to the Jews for 2000 years, resulting in the state of Israel and its inherent belligerence, while the families of our own massacres are still in mourning, here we go again! That's what I find so sickening. Call it whataboutery: you could also regard it as an inconvenient truth.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
I agree with the sentiments of this article. Kizzy, you are right but in the case of I/P, don't you think this particular boil on the face of humanity has throbbed long enough? Generation after generation; endless, mindless hatred and vengeance; and the world slowly being drawn into its stinking, venomous jaws. A bit of me has always admired Israel. If I was an Israeli, or even part of the Jewish diaspora, after everthing that happened in WW2 and before, I would be a hard-arsed stubborn motherfucka. There is no way my people will ever EVER be harmed again. Damn the consequences. So bear that in mind when I say I believe a boycott of Israel is overdue. That alone will not achieve anything. But it could be part of a wider solution. Israel will never be serious about peace unless its resolve and confidence is weakened. If Russia and China stepped up to the plate, we could also deal with the other lot. Sounds easy, I know. Obviously it's not.
marvin
· 11 months ago
Left wing blogs are the king of whatabouterry!
Christ, whenever Islam or behaviour of any Muslims are discussed, especially after an islamist terror attack instantly it's whatabout those Christians in Amerikkka, whatabout those scientlogists, now that's scary! Suicide bombing, eh, whatabout those Tamil Tibers, eh, eh EH??!11!
Refresh
· 11 months ago
Yes to a boycott.
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
Yes, because boycotts and blockades are so effective. I love the way they hit people at the bottom of the pile, whilst - ironically - generating more resentment towards the boycotters, and greater support for the government whose actions inspired the boycott or blockade in the first place. So clever.
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
The thing about a boycott is, it's great for making people like us feel that we're doing something on a very simplistic level. You leave your Cape fruit or your Jaffa oranges on the shelf and you think "THAT is hitting Israel where it hurts." But that's all you're accomplishing, because what you're fostering amongst the traders and civilians of that country is resentment towards you, not their government. So if what you want to do is mark your displeasure with a gesture, then a boycott is an effective way of doing that. But in terms of winning hearts and minds, it's not just ineffective, but counterproductive.
Which is why I personally am very much anti the blockade. I'm just a bit baffled as to why people who were very good at pointing out why the blockade didn't work think that a boycott would produce any different result amongst Israeli civilians. But, you know, whatever. Common sense really goes out the window when this topic comes up, so I shouldn't be surprised.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
I don't give a shit if Israelis feel resentment and the accusations of anti-semitism start to pour down (as they inevitably will). Sometimes you have got to use the stick to get results.
It's not just individual consumers not buying Jaffas (although, lets face it, who would buy Israeli oranges anyway when Spanish oranges are superior). I would go a lot further...
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
Sometimes you have got to use the stick to get results.
That's probably what the Israelis thought when they imposed the blockade, and what Hamas thought whenever they fired off a rocket, and what Israel thought when they began the assault on Gaza. So to what extent would you say that sort of thinking has produced constructive results so far?
halima
· 11 months ago
Katy, do boycotts only hit people at the bottom of the pile? It's an open question - I don't know the answer for sure , but my hunch is that they hit a range. I am not especially clever as the clever people of the world but i think ideas are welcome from everyone.
Did white South Africans resent the boycotts - yes, they did, but what was the net effect on the boycott on the apartheid state? El Cid, yes, by themselves they are not effective - but needs to go hand in hand with other efforts. But what...
But if you agreed they did work - would you support boycotting Israel?
I am thinking more ambitiously. I'd also go with the opinions of people like Klein who've worked on globalisation and corporate behaviour and I take their judgement with credibility.
It's not about individual Jaffas or your Cape Fruit. It's about big company investments - and divesting these. It hurts the economy - and what hurts the economy hurts the government. If you believe consumer actions have any consequences - and I believe these do, then they will affect decisions relating to large-scale investment.
I imagine that boycotts would also point the finger at other states that do business in small weapons to conflicting states - and that's where we really see the poison working it's way and exploiting already explosive situations.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Katy - Israel has real and effective power in Washington and Europe so the ordinary person only has blockades as the Govts are not listening to the people.
In the USA AIPAC buys off Senators, Congressman and even the President now who are mute to any meaningful criticism of Israel.
Thus the ordinary Christian, Jew or Muslim only has boucott. It may not be effective but democracy in the USA especially isn't about the will of the people anymore.
So how else can people make Israel see sense? They won't listen to you, they won't listen to me. They only listen to Bush, Rice and Cheney.
Even at a basic level does any elected official in the USA represent the views of ordinary Jews when they back Israel no matter what. Some Jewish people are unhappy with the actions of Israel but the voice of the community is controlled by a few right wingers.
This needs to be changed within the Jewish Community. Even Rabbi Yoffe in the USA who si viewed as a liberal is speaking out but its against those who are calling on Israel to stop.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
I'm not talking about violence Katy. Don't be silly now.
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
During the South African boycott, I was religiously not buying Cape fruit in Waitrose, when I was joined by my friend and next door neighbour, Emily, the wife of a diplomat at the Kenya High Commission.
She filled her trolley with Cape apples, Cape pears, Cape grapes. She was Caping it for all she was worth. She looked in my trolley and said 'Boycott?', I nodded. She was not impressed. 'Two reasons to ignore the boycott', she said 'Firstly, the boycott doesn't hurt the Government, it hurts those at the bottom of the food chain. Secondly, the fruit's better'.
A lot of the people actually producing the fruit in Israel are Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. I don't think they'll thank you when they're being laid off. As to whether the oranges are better from Spain or Israel, it depends on the time of the year and how you're going to use the oranges.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
I don't agree with the academic boycott of individuals. That's just mean and unintellectual. But cultural and sporting humiliation on the other hand....
halima
· 11 months ago
But Chairwoman
Do we or anyone know the net impact of boycott movement in South Africa from a researched perspective?
The spouse of a diplomat sounds really interesting but generally they are told not to discuss politics - as a rule.
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
Indeed they are, Halima, but we were real friends :-)
halima
· 11 months ago
And going back to to the original question? If anyone knows a link i'd be interested in reading ...
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Lets be clear about this, a boycott of Israelis products and services really isn't going to do anything for anybody. What needs to happen now is for America (and the West) to withdraw it's safety net from Israel in an effort of getting them to finally see the reality of their situation.
My biggest objection to "whataboutery", both in the long, short and medium term, is that it achieves nothing, in real terms. It contextualises nothing. In the end all it amounts to, is about arguing the toss. I saw this process of intellectual oneupmanship happen in South Africa and it wasn't pretty. Worse still, lives were lost because of it. Everyone becomes trapped in their preset positions. The debate stagnates, reason dies. How can I agrue with people when pushed into a corner use God and Allah as a intellectual refuge of last resort. The simple answer is that I can't.
soru
· 11 months ago
Yes, because boycotts and blockades are so effective
Actually, a blockade very likely would be effective, over 20-30 years.
The parts of Israel's economy dependant on trade would be hit, and so agriculture, dependant on land and water, would become more significant. So the stakes become higher, peace becomes more costly.
With less money and imports, the IDF would be slightly lower tech. They are hardly going to drop below WWII levels of ability to kill people, so the change in numbers killed won't be significant, and could go either way. What will matter is that you would see less remote targeting, more hands-on brutality.
In order to justify those actions to those who commit them, Israeli politics would have to become more insular, paranoid and racist. Just as Hamas has the politics it has because that is what is necessary to ideologically support the military tactic of suicide bombing, this neo-Israel would have the politics necessary to support deliberate unapologetic massacres.
Consequently, they would totally lose the consent to be governed of their arab and muslim citizenry, and so have to introduce some form of internal passport, deny them the vote, and heavily police them.
These would all be self-reinforcing trends: the more the West treats Israel like South Africa, Rhodesia or Serbia, the more it comes to resembles it.
It is fantastic to imagine that such a state of affairs could continue for long, that a small group of people could continue to prosper indefinitely in the face of so many bitter enemies and passive ex-allies.
In the absence of a Palestinian Mandela, you probably see an end-game where an american battle group evacuates the surviving Jews around 2030 or so.
Of course, this is all the precise opposite of what a Green like Naomi believes. The very heart of her argument is that poorer states kill fewer people: make a state poorer and it will kill less. Organic, low-tech weapons (like machetes and suicide vests) are better than nasty artificial ones involving chemicals and electronic radiation that probably give you cancer.
In other words, it is the opposite of stupid.
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
OK. I'm going to end up repeating myself again and again, and I'm a bit tired of doing that. So:
El Cid, I know you weren't advocating violence, but I don't agree with you that sticks get results whether you're talking about physical or economic coercion. Particularly not with Israel, which (a) grows its own food and (b) exports a lot of valuable technology which the rest of the world actually needs. As for arms - well, states get arms when they need them regardless of what sanctions are officially in force. You won't stop any state arming itself by boycotting it any more than Israel stopped Hamas from getting rockets without a port, an airstrip or free movement in and out of Gaza. I'm surprised that you're being so naive about this. Even in Gaza, where I'm told there is a major humanitarian crisis, two years of blockading hasn't broken Palestinian resolve. A boycott wouldn't hurt Israel enough to coerce it into doing what you want it to do, but it will antagonise both government and civilians into ignoring what you have to say.
Halima, I don't think that boycotts work or are morally right, because they result in collateral damage to civilians and amount to collective punishment; but even if I thought they worked or were justifiable, I would not support a boycott of Israel unless Hamas was also being boycotted by the states which currently bankroll its weaponry - for the very simple reason, as I have said elsewhere, that it is not "peace" when the powerful side stops firing if the less powerful side doesn't stop.
Economic hardship makes people more inclined to go to war, not less. It doesn't exactly calm people down or encourage them to relax. I think that the Palestinian reaction to the blockade rather bears that out. Happy people have more perspective and are more inclined to negotiate. Which is why I would be in favour of both sides stopping what they're doing, Israel lifting the blockade and helping to fix up the infrastructure it's been destroying, and Gazan civilians actually getting the benefit of the aid that's supposed to be spent on them rather than weapons.
I think that's going to be my final word on IP generally. I looked back through my comments and I just seem to be repeating the same things over and over, but getting more and more upset about it. It's pointless. I can't influence the outcome of this particular conflict, frankly, but I can stop myself from having a nervous breakdown over it, and I think the best way to do that is to take a break.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
An interesting letter published in The Times by possibly the last Britian to leave Palestine after the British Mandate and it makes interesting reading:
The spouse of a diplomat sounds really interesting but generally they are told not to discuss politics - as a rule
I remember my mother telling my father about this when it happened, Halima, so I hope you're not suggesting she made it up? :-)
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman and Katy - Ok so by not boycotting how else do people in the UK show their frustration to Israel.
You don't approve of the comments made about the rally on Sunday and you don't approve of a boycott. So Israel sees nothing, hears nothign and carries on its plan to carve up the West Bank and blockade Gaza and effectively and slowly strangle an entire people from the conciousness of the world.
What do you suggest we do?
How do Palestinians attain freedom when even liberals such as yourself are vetoing every action proposed?
Israel isn't listenting and its actions are war crimes and genocide and that can only bring more problems for Jews worldwide as this goes on and people see this. But people can't vent their frustration by boycotting events or criticising Pro-Israel marches.
It may hurt the Palestinians but a boycott will help bring their freedom. Thats why Israel is so scared of academic and goods boycotts.
Israel is the one who can bring peace because it has power. It isn't willing to so it has to be forced to.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
I disagree with the idea that boycotts don't work -- they can help shape opinion domestically as well as in the target country by turning it into a pariah state and hitting the economy. I think it helped change white opinion in south Africa. The downside is that boycotts take a long time to work. The Jewish diaspora -- a very determined and smart bunch -- would try to circumvent it too. But if boycotts didn't work then U-boats wouldn't have tried to sink British ships in the Atlantic and the Royal Navy wouldn't have blockaded Northern German ports.
That said, what Dude said about America (not sure what the rest of the West has got to do with it) withdrawing its safety net from Israel i.e. cutting back on aid and military supplies would also work.
Mind you, it would help if the Russians and Chinese also applied some pressure on Iran (a big part of the problem) and the Arabs.
Why is it the United States that always has to play world policeman? So it can be slapped again and again by the liberatti?
What about a joint economic, sporting, and cultural boycott of Israel AND Iran?
El Cid
· 11 months ago
"exports a lot of valuable technology which the rest of the world actually needs."
Really? Like what?
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Here look at how things are presented to the Jewish Community.
The Jewish Chronicle Editor lambasts an article in The Guardian:
Peter Preston highlights how much of the US media takes a one sided approach, and in his article he highlights that the Telegraph is Pro-Israel and the Independant is Pro-Palestinian and some of the others are in between.
He cites examples of Israeli rhetoric in US Newspapers.
Overall not a bad article.
But Stephen Pollard doesn't see it that way and says:
A pretty unbalanced start by Stephen Pollard when Robert Preston said Israel Barks but no its better to change this to Jews Control to really bring out the defensive side.
Then Pollard goes on to laughably claim:
"It would never occur to the likes of Peter Preston that the American media might simply be more willing to take a rounded virew of the Middle East, and accept that Israel has a right to defend itself. "
He says that the USA Media is more rounded - it isn't it is almost completely Pro-Israeli. What a joke and what a way to whip the line in the Jewish Community where people had started speaking out.
Juden
· 11 months ago
"Here look at how things are presented to the Jewish Community."
Imran, it might shock you to know that Jews in the UK have the ability to gather information from a wide range of places and are not limited to reading just The JC.
That said, I'm pretty much in agreement with Pollard. Nasty little article from Preston, but we've seen it all before..yawn.
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Katy
Make up your mind. Your reasoning (or lack of it) is very mixed up. In your first paragraph you successfully agrue that boycotting Israel wouldn't work for several well thought out reasons. Your illustration of Israel's failed attempt to break HAMAS (via the boycott route) is a case in point. Then by the second paragraph you throw it all away by advocating that for boycott to work they have to be equally applied. What ruddish! You've already said that Israel would do what it would have to do in arming itself through fair means or foul. Fair comment! But if such a boycott was to be implemented, we would be signing the death warrant of the Palestinian people. Now who exactly is being "naive"?
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
El Cid - Your Intel chip for a start
The Dude
· 11 months ago
One other thing. Boycotts worked in South Africa because the people who would have suffered mostly by their implementation, asked for them.
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
That's not what I said, Dude. I didn't advocate a boycott. I said they didn't work. Halima asked if I would approve of boycotting Israel if boycotts did work and I said that even if they did there would be no point in only getting one side to stop firing. Different issue. Not the same thing.
One of the reasons I don't want to post on this anymore is because people don't even bother to read what I've said before they start laying into me.
Israel exports telecommunications equipment, software development and integral circuitry. That doesn't include its academic "exports" in the fields of medicine, science and technology. I would have thought that anyone advocating a boycott would have looked up what they were boycotting first, but that's that whole "common sense" thing again, I suppose.
Juden
· 11 months ago
"Really? Like what?"
Cancer detection technology, irrigation technology, mobile phone technology, Tsunami and earthquake warning systems..the list goes on..
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Here is YouTube Video of how desperate the Israeli Army is to shoot people:
Judan - "That said, I’m pretty much in agreement with Pollard. Nasty little article from Preston, but we’ve seen it all before..yawn."
Actually I didn't say that Jews didn't gather info from other sources. What I said was that the community news lines are trying to direct down a set road.
As regards Pollard his response was utter nonsense and hysteria. In fact I'd say your response was a better response than having to resort to the tactics that Pollard chose to take.
Pollard should have highlighted as you did that the Jewish community is more adept than Preston or even Pollard himself think.
Pollard is ruining The JC which was a good paper before. I used to like The JC but Pollard is ruining the enjoyment that us Gentiles use to get from reading it.
Juden
· 11 months ago
"Actually I didn’t say that Jews didn’t gather info from other sources. What I said was that the community news lines are trying to direct down a set road."
What are community "news lines"? It's an opinion piece anyway, anyone can see that.
Soso
· 11 months ago
And yes Refresh! Modern America as we know it was built upon the slavery of the black and the genocide of the brown.
Genocide builds nothing. Most native Americans died from innocuous Old World 'diseases' like the common cold.
Those stories about smallpox infected blankets are myths
America is the product of industrious, skilled, disciplined individuals who had foresight and vision. It is humanity's greatest success story, so stop being so jealous.
And amid talk of boycotts and such, I think the only solution to the current situation is for Hamas to cease and desist with its homemade rockets.
The Gazan Arabs are being handed their collective asses on a platter, and unlike in 2006 with Hezbollah, many Arab countries in the region aren't supporting Hamas.
In fact, Gazan Arabs themselves are now beginning to overtly criticise and denounce the misery Hamas has wrought. They're beginning to realise their actions are self-defeating; akin to so many chickens cheering a KFC opening.
So I am somewhat hopeful the hostilities may end before too many feathers are plucked.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman - So we don't do a boycott but how do you get Israel to accept its actions are beyond the bounds and they need to make peace?
They've continued to carve up the land and steal land to build.
Juden
· 11 months ago
Imran, no peace will come while rockets continue to land in Israel. As for land, Hamas have made it almost impossible for any government to convince Israelis that withdrawing from land will bring them peace. Well done Hamas.
Soso
· 11 months ago
Here is YouTube Video of how desperate the Israeli Army is to shoot people:
Oh puhlease!
Just this morning a Gazan Christian posted a web video showing Hamas breaking up a wedding last summer because the participants, and bride and groom, were Chistian and were singing.
Imagine how outrageous and obscene it is to sing at a wedding?
One should only sing at funerals.
They fired just over the heads of the revellers, (there were many, many SMALL children present) bulldozed all the tables and chairs, and then beat the groom to a pulp.
It was a real party.
And we are all Hamas now!
I would like to ask a question. How many extra-judicial killings have been carried out by Hamas since the hositlities began? I've heard the figure is around 50. When chaos explodes, it always provides cover AND justification to settle those old clan rivalries, you know.
Don
· 11 months ago
I don't see how a boycott would help. If the aim is to make Israeli citizens aware that many people are appalled by current IDF actions and the brutal consequences of the blockade, then it is surely redundant. Israelis have full access to information and know how world opinion is moving.
As El Cid pointed out, academic boycotts are petty and counter-productive. As often as not the boycott will affect progressive Israelis as much as hard-liners.
Sporting and cultural boycotts? What is there to boycott? When was the last time anyone can remember attending an Israeli cultural or sporting event? OK, maybe one or two, but those people are unlikely to support a boycott. So do what? Refuse to play football and give Israel nul points on Eurovision?
Agricultural produce? as Katy and CW have said, that will impact first on those at the bottom of the heap and besides will only be effecive on products identified as Israeli and what proportion of shoppers will give it a second thought?
Boycott Israeli expertise in pharmaceuticals, software, geo-thermals, solar power, water conservation? Who will that benefit? And how does one boycott knowledge?
If the intention is to damage the Israeli economy the impact will be slight and any damage easily made up by US subsidies. If it is to raise awareness, it's the wrong way to go about it. You don't persuade someone of something by giving them the cold shoulder, you have to engage.
Israel has always existed in the knowledge that it is surrounded by those dedicated to its extinction. It's all very well to say that Hammas do not (yet) have the capability to effect that, or that Iran didn't (really) mean what it said about wiping it off the map. Israelis have good reason to take these existential threats seriously.
Palestinians also face a real and present threat to their existence. I'm baffled that the Israeli government doesn't seem to see what that threat can do to a people.
The situation is horrible and on the information we have so far I accept that the term 'war crimes' may be appropriate for some of the actions of the IDF. The blockade itself may well be considered a crime against humanity. But you don't get someone to show restraint by backing them into a corner and confirming their belief that their extinction is the desired outcome. Both sides feel that and both sides have good reason. Why would either side listen to anyone who did not make it unequivocal that they will not accept such an extinction?
I don't see why Israel should listen to the views of anyone or any nation or group which does not make it explicit that they are fully and permanently committed to Israel's right to exist. Nor do I see why Palestinians should not have the same entitlement.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Juden - Please - no peace will be made whilst Israel follows its follies. The rockets though destestable are simply a product of much of Israel's policy in Palestine.
Israel broke the truce and that resulted in rocket fire. Israel builds settlements and claims it wants peace. The rockets and everythign else is the result of frustration and the sense of despair as people see any hope for a solution disappear.
Israel is the one destroying hope for peace by violating continually land that forms part of any solution.
Until Israel which is the major military power decides it wants peace then nothing can be achieved.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Soso - Hamas isn't recognised. Israel is supposedly a civilised democratic country run by a militart junta that doesn't even listen to its own supreme court.
It hides its crimes from the world aided by apologetics who always hide behind Hamas does this and that. A Hamas you won't recognise until it suits you.
Juden
· 11 months ago
"Israel broke the truce and that resulted in rocket fire."
I beg to differ. Would you like to see a list of all the rockets which landed inside Israel during this supposed "truce"?
Or should we patronise the Palestinians and say that they cannot take responsibility for their actions?
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Don - "Israel has always existed in the knowledge that it is surrounded by those dedicated to its extinction."
And the Arab World exists under a threat from Israel which won't define its borders and is egged on by Evangelicals who want to see a second coming by wiping the Arabs of the face of the earth.
So the Arab world is faced with an even bigger threat that is dedicated to its extinction and is backed by two nuclear armed allies who are not afraid to use their military might to get their way.
Everf considered that as a reason the Arabs are freaful of Israel.
You are what you partner with and Israel is in bed with groups dedicated to the eradication of Islam and to war in the middle east to meet their religious goals of the return of their messiah.
So Arabs face a far greater threat from Israel and the USA than the other way round.
And before you say they are unlikely to do that Israel egged on Bush to lie and make war in Iraq under pretence it and the USA were under threat from WMD's which never existed. Bush, Rice and Cheney then sent Powell to lie and deceive the UN and backed by an Evangelicqal Catholic in Blair who didn't give a damn about the view of his own country men and women went to war and massacred people and set-up their own kangaroo courts.
So who is a bigger threat to who?
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Juden - " beg to differ. Would you like to see a list of all the rockets which landed inside Israel during this supposed “truce”?"
The rockets were a response to the blockade and other Israeli military actions.
"Or should we patronise the Palestinians and say that they cannot take responsibility for their actions?"
No they shouldn't be firing rockets and need to be accountable but they are held to a far harsher account than Israel.
Both sides need to stop pretending they have bigger dicks and sort out this bloody mess considering the fact they both stupid.
And they don't need to be egged on by the USA or the Arab world to pretend they can win.
Boycott them both and make them make peace.
Juden
· 11 months ago
"The rockets were a response to the blockade and other Israeli military actions."
No, the rockets started long before the blockade. In fact, they were landing in Israel almost immediately after Israel withdrew from Gaza.
I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the escalations of violence, I'm not sure what the answer is, but it's not boycotts.
Soso
· 11 months ago
I don’t see why Israel should listen to the views of anyone or any nation or group which does not make it explicit that they are fully and permanently committed to Israel’s right to exist.
Absolutely.
Would anyone here care about the skewed views of an individual who intended to kill you?
You are what you partner with and Israel is in bed with groups dedicated to the eradication of Islam and to war in the middle east to meet their religious goals of the return of their messiah.
Yes, the same groups that spent 10 years, billions of dollars and 1000s of lives to save muslim ass in The Balkans are dedicated to the eradication of Islam.
May I say something equally silly?
When you pray, did it ever occur to you that your face is tilted downwards in the direction of SATAN and HELL, and that your bottom, an unclean part of the human body, is up in the air facing (MOCKING) god?
During many anti-Israel demos, some of the muslim participants chanted hate-filled slogans against Jews and then stopped and dropped to mock the god of both Jews and Christians.
These radicals need those precious moments to re-engage with their deity in order to recharge their hate, don't they?
They sipped at the teat of satan, and then spat out the vile contents.
How's that for 'evangelical'?
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
HURRAH DON.
jamaal
· 11 months ago
The Israelis started this conflict historically, and more recently too in breaking the ceasefire in November 08. So if youre going to write about something write about that.
Yes the Palestinians have fought back, courageous and united in the oldest human struggle - to be free. Stateless and humiliated for so long, they've risen up against Israel's huge military machine, although they themselves have no arm, no tanks, no American planes and gun ships or missiles.
Some have committed desperate acts of terror, like suicide bombing. But for Palestinians, the overriding, routine terror, day after day, has been the ruthless control of almost every aspect of their lives, as if they live in an open prison.
These Zionist Israelis who suffered at the hands of Hitler's Nazi regime, have now increased their own Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing against Palestinian people. Not all Zionists or Israelis support these atrocities, but those Zionists and Israelis that do War on Palestine are effectively the new Nazis, the real Terrorists!!
Even when this invasion ends, the Israeli War on Gaza and Palestine will continue under another excuse no doubt, with whatever missions its corrupt leaders want to accomplish under the surface there. When will the global community speak up and demand that this violence and oppression ceases?
World Leaders must immediately act to cease Israel's bombing, siege, invasion, oppression, occupation and apartheid of Palestine and Gaza.
Israel, with use of sanctions and declarations of War against it if necessary, must return to its pre-1967 borders, withdraw from ALL Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem), allow Palestine to control its own borders and recognise Palestinian rights, including the rights to life, freedom, movement and the return to homelands.
Until this is achieved all political, economic and military aid, trade and support to Israel need to cease (including cultural and sporting isolation), that the Palestinian causes be defended, that the brutal Israeli/Zionist War crimes be denounced and that the oppressive Israeli policy of illegal expansion and oppression in Palestine be criticised.
SE
· 11 months ago
Soso just proved himself to be a mentally insane evangelical piece of shit.
These king of Christian fascist nutters back Israel, nuff said.
halima
· 11 months ago
"The spouse of a diplomat sounds really interesting but generally they are told not to discuss politics - as a rule
I remember my mother telling my father about this when it happened, Halima, so I hope you’re not suggesting she made it up? :-)"
Katy I wasn't doubting your mother - just pointing out that diplomats and their kin shouldn't be quoted in public domains - it gets them into trouble!
As to your point about boycotts. It sounds to me that you're saying you'd support a boycott of Israel if one was equally applied to Hamas. I'd say fair point. I'd boycott both for their actions. Still in the real world a boycott might not be effective - but never say never. I am sure there were many people on South Africa who claimed it wouldn't work - and perhaps after 15-20 years, the same people acceded it might work. Time will tell. I believe it will happen - the world will wake up and not wait on the Americans to broker peace on everything.
SE
· 11 months ago
"Genocide builds nothing. Most native Americans died from innocuous Old World ‘diseases’ like the common cold.
Those stories about smallpox infected blankets are myth"
Fucking christofascist nutter. You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum.
marvin
· 11 months ago
The Nazis' objective was the systematic extermination of every Jew in Europe. Israel is seeking peace with its Palestinian neighbors. More than one million Arabs live as free and equal citizens in Israel. Of the Palestinians in the territories, 98 percent live under the civil administration of the Palestinian Authority. While Israel sometimes employs harsh measures against Palestinians in the territories to protect Israeli citizens – Jews and non-Jews – from the incessant campaign of terror waged by the PA and Islamic radicals, there is no plan to persecute, exterminate, or expel the Palestinian people.
Jamaal and Imran, do you support Hamas? Perhaps you are from their propaganda department?
Here's a thought, why don't you support the Palestinian people so that they can live in a peaceful tolerant and economically thriving society alongside Israel? A bit more of a boring aim I suppose, when you can scream blue murder at the 'Zionists'!
Have you read anything Sunny said in this article?
"If you can only see the humanity of one side and never the other, one side of the history, and one side of the suffering. If everything you say is to point the finger of blame at the baddies and exonerate the goodies. If you haven’t had a new point to make for five, ten or sixty years."
"You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum" - SE. If only you understood the concept of irony!
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Judan - "I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the escalations of violence, I’m not sure what the answer is, but it’s not boycotts."
Both sides are to blame for everything not just the escalations. In terms of boycott I wasn't referring to the people or products but I think the Govts for both should be boycotted from all institutions until they learn to live with each other.
Probably not viable as a solution but it may teach them a lesson.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Marvin - are you a Meir Khanane supporter? Most of your propoganda comes from that thought - what page of their manual are you on.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Katy - What about the boycott on Iran which Israel and her supporters are pushing for?
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Marvin - " Israel is seeking peace with its Palestinian neighbors. More than one million Arabs live as free and equal citizens in Israel. Of the Palestinians in the territories, 98 percent live under the civil administration of the Palestinian Authority."
Do you actually believe the nonsense you write?! Seriously how can you say Israel is seeking perace when Israel is building on an unprecedented scale in the West Bank. Look at the Peace Now website.
Israeli Arabs are equal citizens - are you stupid? Almost every govt including Sharon's admitted they were neglected and deprived and needed more help. I mean your live in a Meir Khanane fantasy world.
Of the Palestinians in the West Bank 98 Percent live in a tiny percentage of the land, with the rest controlled by the IDF and every movement controlled and linked to the fate of your land stealers.
So all in all your statements are fictional nonsense not based on facts on the ground.
As to your assertion - I do not support Hamas and am not from their propoganda dept. That is typical zionist slurs when you lose arguments.
I wouldn't even have replied to your nonsense but you were posting so much I felt compelled to let you have a taste of your own medicine.
I regard both sides as equally guilty for this mess. I am harder on Israel because it has more power to make the necessary change and won't. Israel has failed the peace because it won't give the Palestinians a real chance. That said the Palestinians are fools for what they do and for the corruption they have.
At the end of the day it is the ordinary people who suffer because the politicians on both sides won't back down from unsustainable positions.
Can Israel defeat the Palestinians - No.
Can the Palestinians defeat Israel - No.
So the only way to win is by N-E-G-O-T-I-A-T-I-O-N-S which is something you are in denial about because you keep posting right wing Israeli propoganda.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
Katy, Chairwoman, Juden, Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible. P.S. This is not a comment on Israeli, let alone Jewish, ingenuity.
marvin
· 11 months ago
El Cid, if a people begin a boycott of Israel, many people will specifically buy Israeli.
The Danish boycott resulted in many Danish exports increasing. The lists of "things to boycott" were circulated amongst supporters of free speech, and those products were specifically bought.
Go for it, if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect the whole world to do the same.
halima
· 11 months ago
Interestingly enough , the longest standing sanctions I can think of at the moment is in Cuba.
Where , quote Wiki to be lazy, the 'United States Embargo against Cuba is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed on the Castro government on February 7, 1962. The embargo was enacted after the Castro government expropriated the properties of United States citizens and corporations (notably those that belonged to the United Fruit Company and the ITT).
The embargo was codified into law in 1992 with the stated purpose of "bringing democracy to the Cuban people", and in fact is entitled the Cuban Democracy Act. In 1996, Congress passed the Helms-Burton Act, which further restricted United States citizens from doing business in or with Cuba, and mandated restrictions on giving public or private assistance to any successor regime in Havana unless and until certain claims against the Cuban government are met. In 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton modified the trade embargo by requiring that foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies stop trading with Cuba. He also authorized the sale of certain US products to Cuba.
At present, the embargo, which limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests, is still in effect and is the most enduring trade embargo in modern history.'
The Cuban government probably hasn't committed many crimes against American interests but still these policies are in place... against Cuba. And I'd argue the embargo here is working... and the point of sanctions and embargoes is that it takes time to work, hurt and impact.
SE
· 11 months ago
@Imran: You have to understand these people don't consider brown people human.
El Cid
· 11 months ago
"I don’t see how a boycott would help. If the aim is to make Israeli citizens aware that many people are appalled by current IDF actions and the brutal consequences of the blockade, then it is surely redundant. Israelis have full access to information and know how world opinion is moving."
Yeah, but Israel has deeply ingrained Millwallitis. i.e. "No-one likes us we don't care.". I would probably too if I was one of its citizens. Ironically, I can see that. But that is bye the bye. Enough already.
Israel could be made "to care" by hitting them hard in the pocket and in the soul, forcing them to understand that a tipping point had long been passed and that they could no longer rely on the legacy of WW2 (inc. European guilt) to see them through.
Don, yes, I would suspend Israel from UEFA and sporting organisations, for a start. Humiliate them (the men if not the women). Trust me, they would be hugely offended. Fuck em. Let them know that they are not worthy to sit at the same table as the rest of us until their behaviour improves.
But the more I think about it, the more I would target Iran too, treat them similarly. Hence Russian and Chinese cooperation would be crucial.
If there was enough political will, Israel and Iran could be made to yield. Unfortunately there isn't. But from little acorns..
Katy Newton
· 11 months ago
Katy - What about the boycott on Iran which Israel and her supporters are pushing for?
Imran, what part of "I don't approve of boycotts and I don't think they work" do you not understand?
Soso
· 11 months ago
Fucking christofascist nutter. You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum
Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last evening.
And were I to have the choice of mental asylum, could it please be the Gaza Strip?
Yes the Palestinians have fought back, courageous and united in the oldest human struggle - to be free. Stateless and humiliated for so long, they’ve risen up against Israel’s huge military machine, although they themselves have no arm, no tanks, no American planes and gun ships or missiles.
*Sniff*
I was around back in '67, and the term "Palestinian" simply didn't even exist. At the time the term used was "Transjordanian" or simply "Arab". There is no such thing as a Palestinian people or a Palestinian culture or a Palestinian history that is in any way distinct from those of the other Arabs nearby. They were only re-branded as "Palestinian" back in the late60s/early70s.
And the fact Hamas has no tanks or gunships or missiles doesn't make them look like heroic underdogs, just disproportionately stupid, primitive and backward idiots.
Besides, who needs tanks and gunships when you can avail yourself, and quite demonically, of some 1.2 million captive human shields?
It is such a sick and macabre game to continually and ceaselessly goad Israel into reacting, and to then feign apoplectic outrage when the resulting and altogether expected casualties accumulate.
I see through the ruse and realise that despite the violence, death and destruction, it is simply pointless to waste sympathy on this 'cause', and I am not the only one.
The best way to gauge Hamas' *character-content* is to examine the way in which they treat Gazan Christians, a community that numbers barely 3,000 individuals.
Last year Hamas operatives, blew up the only christian bookshop in Gaza, and killed both the owner and his shop-assistant. Apparently, several Muslim Gazans had expressed interest in Christianity, and given the behavior demonstrated by the Islamists in Hamas, who the hell wouldn't?
But that wasn't the end. Gazan Christians whom, we should remember, bear the brunt of Israeli air-strikes as well, also had a YMCA where Christian boys and girls could hang out, shoot some pool and socialise.
For Hamas, though, that "Y" was a den of inequity, the aboooode of Satan, and so they decided to blow it up as well!
A jolly good time was had by all.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Sos - "I was around back in ‘67, and the term “Palestinian” simply didn’t even exist. At the time the term used was “Transjordanian” or simply “Arab”. There is no such thing as a Palestinian people or a Palestinian culture or a Palestinian history that is in any way distinct from those of the other Arabs nearby. They were only re-branded as “Palestinian” back in the late60s/early70s."
Here we go with the usual rubbish.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Katy - "Imran, what part of “I don’t approve of boycotts and I don’t think they work” do you not understand?"
Sorry I didn't see that comment from you.
Soso
· 11 months ago
Things are deteriorating in Gaza. One wonders how many Gazans have been murdered in revenge attacks. This is the reality of Gaza, and one that cannot be tied back to Israel in any way, shape or form. It's turning into a fatah/hamas bloodbath.
Marvin - The reason why a boycott won't work is because as a few leading scholars in Saudi have pointed out that the goods produced such as medicine, medical equipment etc. are needed for helping people.
Thus a boycott harms both sides and is counter-productive.
It isn't about the fact some evangelicals will move to buy some Israeli foodstuff.
The point is a boycott won't work and isn't sustainable and essentially it puts lives on both sides at stake by denying basic needs for all.
If the Muslim world were to boycott medicine and medical equipment produced in Israel it would have an affect but it would harm both sides therefore it is counter productive.
The reason the boycott in South Africa had some effect was because they didn't produce things vital to the basic needs of the boycotters.
What is needed is a concerted push to peace with real purpose.
As part of this industrial zones in Israel Palestine are set-up for joint business ventures to improve the lives of people so they have prospects for prosperity.
That helps to move them both out of this mess.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Soso - what is the reality when you even deny the people exist so therefore your clip must be fake by your own logic.
Pray tell me who are the people in the video because earlier you said there was no such thing as Palestinians and they were invented!
Your solution is one of denial of the other side so people don't give a shit.
I don't support anyone killing anyone is that sooooo hard for you to comprehend?
Kadima + Labour + Likud + Hamas + Fatah = BAD FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE
It is a simple equation.
Soso
· 11 months ago
Pray tell me who are the people in the video because earlier you said there was no such thing as Palestinians and they were invented!
Gazan Arabs. I've used that description several times. What are your thoughts on the content of those videos?
I must say that I tend to agree with your equation of what's bad for ordinary people, although I'd add religious fundamentalism to it.
Boyo
· 11 months ago
I get the feeling we may have strayed in to someone's cyber war, if you get my drift. Shekel a word, maybe?!
Boyo
· 11 months ago
The "Christians" (as they may have been, I don't know) were part of the Hamas/ Fatah bust-up. This is the video which I believe refers:
I don't believe it was due to singing - it was the conflict between the two sides. Unless, a different video can be produced?
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Soso - My thoughts I've already given you that I detest all killing of innocent people.
If you want me to say more I will. This is a battle for control by people who have no interest in peace, justice, religion or freedom.
It is simply a mad grab for power.
There is no such thing as religious fundementalism because when one gets to the stage of fundementalism one has lost sight of religious values and then one will do anything in the name of religion even if it is prohibited.
Religion doesn't sanction the actions of fundementalists they just deviate it to think it does.
George Bush said his war was inspired by God, but it wasn't God didn't tell him to invade Iraq and cause misery and havoc.
Fundementalists give religion a bad name.
davebones
· 11 months ago
Dideveryonehaveagoodriottoday? sorry I missed you spacebar seems to havepacked up back later :-)
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
Halima @74 - It was probably before you were born :-)
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
'Katy, Chairwoman, Juden, Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible.'
Exactly
tanvir
· 11 months ago
The occupation existed long before Hamas, the ethnic cleansing and the camps full of people waiting to go home also were there before the existance of hamas. By making this battle about Hamas and the rockets, Israel further shifts the debate away from giving up what doesnt belong to it, or letting the people go home.
Israel's rights to exist comes up time and time again, but its existance is based on ethnic cleansing; yet demands its status as the 'Jewish state' be preserved, and reversing the expulsiion of Palestinians would mean an end of its existance. Its like if i nicked a car and said if i gave it back i couldnt get to work therefore i must be allowed to keep it!
I cant see the Palestinians ever giving up the right to their freedom, their statehood and their right to go home. Israel needs the violence and 'terrorism' as a cover to continue its crimes, if everyone was nice about it, what excuse would it have?
This blog of a UK doctor visiting Jerusalem was quite an eye opener to how the Palestinians are treated - just imagine if it was you in their shoes... with the President of the US saying 'well the realities on the ground have changed' and noone likely to make a difference.
So to go back to the point of the thread, what about rockets...what about roadblocks...... its about the occupation, the rest are all by-products of the occupation or tools to enforce it or divert attention from the central issue.
Boyo
· 11 months ago
It's a good blog, but I'd like to point out I'm white and am held up by security for up to a couple of hours every time I go. Not everything is a racist conspiracy.
Furthermore, as he admittedly furnished bogus information, I don't know why he should complain.
They are always twitchy, not least because a few years ago a pair of British Muslims carried out a suicide attack in Tel Aviv. http://www.hvk.org/articles/0503/146.html
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman - "‘Katy, Chairwoman, Juden, Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible.’
Exactly"
But Chairwoman that doesn't mean Israel can do what it likes and carry on as it has since '67. Thats the point. This simply can't go on as it has.
The world economy can't do without Israel and the world can't do with this conflict going on.
Israel and the Palestinians have to find a way to live together and for that Israel as state has to be held to account for its occupation.
Both sides paying lip service to a two state solution and not to getting there isn't helping either party.
How long if this continues can Israel rely upon your support?
Thats my point that Israel's support is cracking in its own communities.
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
I will always support the existence of Israel.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman - "‘I will always support the existence of Israel."
No I didn't question that. I meant how long will you support Israel in what it does against the West Bank and Gaza?
If this continues then Israel will lose support amongst World Jewry for its actions.
Hence my point that with what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank how long can Israel rely on your support for its policies there?
tanvir
· 11 months ago
divert away from the issue then boyo, i would think the disgusting way the Palestinians are treated in their own land, witnessed first hand in the doctor's blog was more significant that airport issues in that blog....
its the occupation... not about some tourist lying to immigration thats the issue, the occupation is what needs to be addressed, its the people who are waiting to go home who need answers, Israel continues to divert the issue and its suporters continue the whataboutery - we are not blind and the Palestinians will never ever give up. No justice, no peace.
Boyo
· 11 months ago
Ra Tanvir! Didn't I say "It’s a good blog"?
But why strive for balance, eh?
comrade
· 11 months ago
I cant see the Palestinians ever giving up the right to their freedom, their statehood and their right to go home
NEVER NEVER NEVER
VICTORY TO THE RESISANT!
marvin
· 11 months ago
The 'resistance' which prides itself on killing innocent people. What a nice human being you are. The scum really does come out of the wood work on the I/P conflict!
comrade
· 11 months ago
109.
The ‘resistance’ which prides itself on killing innocent people. What a nice human being you are. The scum really does come out of the wood work on the I/P conflict!
didn't take long for the MOSSAD to respond.
When your house has been occupied by blood thirsty facist vultures then resistant is justifiied
Boyo
· 11 months ago
"then resistant is justifiied"
What, like "wrinkle-resistant"?
comrade
· 11 months ago
What, like “wrinkle-resistant”
No, like the Gazans resistant
El Cid
· 11 months ago
Yeah, I know I expressed it incorrectly. But it was too late to re-edit by the time I noticed. An easy goal to put away but a meaningless one. You know what I meant madam.
Imran, The world economy can do without Israel. Trust me.
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Katy
I've just re-read Halima's post (No: 32) along with your own but I'm sorry my point still stands. If someone is going to lead you down a blind alley, do yourself a favour and DON"T FOLLOW THEM. The consequences of your post would have meant the Palestinian being deprived of the means to defend themselves. It was this I was objecting to and nothing else.
There is a time and a place for everything and that includes BOYCOTTS and the like. Right now, in the current situation, I tend to be in agreement with you regarding the rights and wrongs of BOYCOTTING. I simply can't see them working, period.
El Cid
I think anyone who thinks that the world (in it's present economic dire strait) could do without the innovation coming out of Israel is nothing short of crazy. Period! But neither is Israel's economy (in the log term) indispensable. Nothing in life is. The world will keep on turning even after we are all dead.
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman
Your love for Israel is killing the very thing you love as surely as day follows night. What Israel needs now is a reality check and a healthy dose of tough love and humble pie. BTW: The Palestinians need exactly the same thing. Your entrenched position negates the fact that the hole you're in is filling up with water. You can either choose to stay in the hole and drown or you could choose to get out of it and set your feet on terra firma. Your choice. Choose wisely.
halima
· 11 months ago
"But neither is Israel’s economy (in the log term) indispensable. Nothing in life is. The world will keep on turning even after we are all dead."
I'd add that the world will keep on turning after we've all been dead - and after the American economy ,too , has eclipsed ( we're in the middle of this downward spiral right now) .. and it seems to be so much of our responses to world crisis is based on calculations of what the Americans will or won't do. That's putting an awful lot of faith in one place. It's almost a leap of faith as people leaving god to sort things out. We need to get out of what i'd call , for want of a better word, presentisim, it blinds us to making solutions work because it won't work now or hasn't in the past. With renewed political will, the same solutions can be enforced. We don't need new ideas for solving Israel Palestine. It's not rocket science, it's political will that's missing.
Chairwoman , you got me! Respect.
chairwoman
· 11 months ago
Good morning Imran
My answer was entirely accurate. At no time have I said that I support the current action of the Israeli Government.
Neither did I support the US/UK invasion of Iraq which made absolutely no sense whatsoever, and was certainly of no advantage to Israel, though of course, it was to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
But I de-railed. Forgive me :-)
But I still support and always will support the existence of the State of Israel. I have to, because when hotheads such as SE become the majority, and life becomes more 'difficult' for Jews in this country, I would rather go to a besieged Israel than wherever SE has in store for me.
Please don't say it can't happen here, who would have thought it could have happened in Germany while I was in my mother's womb?
El Cid
· 11 months ago
Dude, Economically, it is dispensible in the short-term. Trust me.
The Dude
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman
I hear where you're coming from (and where you're going to). That's what I think about South Africa. It's the one place where I would run to if ever I thought that the safety of me and my family became untenable in the UK, but only in very, very extreme circumstances would I want white people run out of South Africa as a response of me being run out of the UK. You see, two wrongs don't make a right.
It shouldn't be forgotten that one of the (secret) friends and supporters of the Apartheid Regime was the State of Israel. They supplied both arms, logistics and intelligence to Pretoria for years (breaking the UN arms embargo) before the liberation. So not all of Israel's exports were a good thing.
Imran Khan
· 11 months ago
Chairwoman - "I have to, because when hotheads such as SE become the majority, and life becomes more ‘difficult’ for Jews in this country, I would rather go to a besieged Israel than wherever SE has in store for me.
Please don’t say it can’t happen here, who would have thought it could have happened in Germany while I was in my mother’s womb?"
Well I hope it doesn't become difficult for Jews anywhere or Muslims or Christians or anyone anywhere.
I wouldn't say it can't happen but I would say we need to work to avoid it.
As I said we need to work towards events to bring together Jews and Muslims and remind them that they have a shared history. Yes there are episodes which are not good but there are also good times.
Bring people together and have a greater understanding of each other.
BTW I do understand what you are saying and am trying to support you with project ideas and also help to continue your quest to find out more about your family who persished at Nazi hands. I may not be of much use but I'll try :-)
James
· 10 months ago
I found this on another blog, very funny.
The Little Dickie Silverstein Marching Song
I am a little kapo, It makes my mommy mad, Cause when I am a kapo, Those Zionists get sad!
I celebrate the jihad, and terror all the while, I fill my blog and web page, With loud salutes of Sieg Heil!
I want to see them Zraelis, All dumped out in the sea, My swastika a waving, Cause everything’s bout me.
BenSix
· 10 months ago
*Scans the above poem*
Tsh, gotta go to a funeral for some laughs after reading that.
All Comments
The death toll will be up to 2,000 by then and it won't make me less angrier, I'll tell you that.
Israel and Palestine are fighting.
Israel is wrong. Well, we think so.
No, Palestinians are to blame. That's what we think.
We wish they wouldn't keep fighting, mind.
Yes, we all agree with that.
Right. Next topic...
No they're not!
Its Israel vs Hamas!
Its the politicians who are pulling the strings here. Its the people at the top of the food chain, as always, that are responsible for the massacres on both sides.
When we have our say, we are telling THEM to stop this happening!
With all respect.
I think that that is actually the mindset that has led to the type of thing that Sunny is talking about. We, 'tell,' no one. The forum of internet opinion is not binding, not is it inherently of good quality.
The idea that, 'we,' (whoever that means) should be indulged on our terms is why we see so much internet bile. Yes, by all means have your say but government does not exist to legislate for prejudice or talkboard knee-jerk.
There is a world of difference between getting all worked up and translating that into real pressure. Ask StW who, of course saw Tony Blair and George Bush reelected post-Iraq.
Think of it this way - what would the internet have looked like had it been around 25 years ago, 40 years, 50? My guess is that the professional malcontents would have been using stalking horses (whataboutery - nice term!) in much the same way then as now.
By all means, share your perspective - but the internet is a talkboard. To afford it any higher status is to take this too seriously.
I don't get it
And, that is why people can’t empathise, because they have never really thought about what they are saying or doing.
Tim - erm, in theory maybe, but given the amount of women children killed so far in Palestine I don't think that's true in reality.
ANYWAY. I'm going to try and avoid the subject for the weekend at least.
(apart from the demo tomorrow, and the erm, pictures that will follow).
Think of those dreadful BBC news spots where two 'sides' are interviewed. All they produce is one-liners and victimhood. The internet has this writ large.
Too often conflict is confused with debate. I think that the reason I/P creates so much polarisation is that if ever there was a conflict with shades of grey I/P is it. The internet, not doing shades of grey, just chases its tail on I/P.
Whataboutery is a way of avoiding dealing with the hard questions brought up in a debate by bringing in other remotely connected issues so the finger-pointing continues.
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=172...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=...
Heh very true, the intellectual value is exceptionally low but then that's not the point it's to muddy the waters, cause flames wars and distract us from harsh realities. Because you know, we need protecting and stuff...
You can't have it. Yes, whatabouterry can be rationalisation. But it can also be a genuine reminder of context. Most blogging is shit but it is nothing at all if it isn't a conversation. Asking for the end of whatabouterry is asking for an end to the conversation and that people should listen to a monologue instead: you point something out, everyone else engages in a moral lament. Is this what you want? Then give up blogging and join the fucking priesthood.
'Richard Silverstein
Hasbara spam alert With Israel's foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/ja...
Here is the 6th comment:
'Oh no, jewish people actually fighting back....what a catastrophe that must be for the liberal, jew-haters. A real Nakbar.
Mr Silverstein, didn't your country also kill tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children when your country invaded Iraq....for oil. Of course, that may just be bad press, don't you think. But I'm sure the pictures look just the same.
While your at it however, can you point me in the direction of where I can actually find a demonstrations taking place (be it in the muslim world or even in this counry) that actually haev muslims demonstrating against Sudan for the mass murder is Darfur. That's 250,000 DEAD innocent men women and children and 3 MILLION displaced.'
Unimagineable whataboutery. The commenter accuses the US (Mr Silverstein is a US citizen) of invading Iraq and killing thousands for oil - so that as an american he is in no position to criticise Israel. I think you get the feel for where we are heading over the next few weeks and months.
I was thinking about a similar long running I/P debate on Guardian Talkboards where one commenter 'Hogwash' over a period managed to discount every nation of being in any position to tell Israel anything. The best one for me was when he finally turned on one of the american commenters for their genocide of the native americans.
You took the words right out of my mouth! And yes Refresh! Modern America as we know it was built upon the slavery of the black and the genocide of the brown. This is NOT a unimagineable whataboutery of history but a cold, hard fact. This should not mean that we should remain prisoners of the past but neither should it mean we forget it.
I've said several times on this forum that I don't believe in either the State of Israel or the State of Palestine. For different reasons neither states are no longer viable. The two state solution has gone past it's sell by date. What I am advocating requires radical new thinking from both the parties but before we can reach that stage, something else needs to happen. The two parties need to start talking to each and stop talking past each other. If we on this forum can show by our example the proper engagement of debate and reason, then yes we become part of the solution and NOT part of the problem.
See calls for boycott from Naomi Klein.
"Enough. It's time for a boycott
The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/ja...
It's been a powerful technique before - and will have ever more powerful impact on Israel's action than anything else i can think of - including the influence of the US.
Klein also deals with all the counter-arguments for why people say boycotts might not work.
She writes " it was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine."
Sunny/Leon
It might be useful to run this article as a thread - more interesting discussion of how to see change, than the usual arguments on i/p. I agree with you that the blogs aren't the space for scoring points when people are dying by the thousands. It exhausts the meaning of armchair politics .
- if you’re mindlessly just quoting SWP press releases
- if you think Hamas are just a bunch of valiant freedom fighters
I've not seen anything like that on PP or LC.
As for boycotting Israel, see Naomi Klein's Cif piece, linked to by Halima.
I mostly support your calls to take a break from this. I find this discussion exhausting - and some of us already started to take a break before the 31st December or before when the more recent crisis hit the headlines.
But i think the issue of boycott might sadly be the only way forward - where political mediation doesn't work, cold business usually does. I don't consider myself part of the problem just because I do. You might argue why just boycott Israel and not Palestine - if we want to be seen to be even handed.
I'd also be happy to boycott Hamas, too, but let's say, taking the principle of proportionality as to the volume of boycotts applied to each warring party and the extent of damage each causes on civilian life. That would be fair in my books.
But having been living in a very poor country like Nepal for coming up to two years now where there are fuel shortages that cripple the country I can't see how else we might cripple the Palestinian economy, any more than the Israeli state already is.
Take a look at Burma. Plenty of tourists are happy to go to Burma, despite the human rights abuses, but then justify on the basis that the money they spend doesn't go through government channels. It's the state that's the problem, not the people.
Whataboutery is in fact the elephant in the living room for both the cheerleaders of Hamas and Israel - both wishing to demonise the other - while ignoring that both are just different sides of the same coin, brutalised by forces largely beyond their control.
If you want something to demonstrate about, why not march on the Iranian, Syrian and American embassies, demanding they broker peace? It might deprive you of your demons, but at least it could actually achieve something.
Not only did we project our own sins on to the Jews for 2000 years, resulting in the state of Israel and its inherent belligerence, while the families of our own massacres are still in mourning, here we go again! That's what I find so sickening. Call it whataboutery: you could also regard it as an inconvenient truth.
Kizzy, you are right but in the case of I/P, don't you think this particular boil on the face of humanity has throbbed long enough? Generation after generation; endless, mindless hatred and vengeance; and the world slowly being drawn into its stinking, venomous jaws.
A bit of me has always admired Israel. If I was an Israeli, or even part of the Jewish diaspora, after everthing that happened in WW2 and before, I would be a hard-arsed stubborn motherfucka. There is no way my people will ever EVER be harmed again. Damn the consequences.
So bear that in mind when I say I believe a boycott of Israel is overdue. That alone will not achieve anything. But it could be part of a wider solution. Israel will never be serious about peace unless its resolve and confidence is weakened.
If Russia and China stepped up to the plate, we could also deal with the other lot. Sounds easy, I know. Obviously it's not.
Christ, whenever Islam or behaviour of any Muslims are discussed, especially after an islamist terror attack instantly it's whatabout those Christians in Amerikkka, whatabout those scientlogists, now that's scary! Suicide bombing, eh, whatabout those Tamil Tibers, eh, eh EH??!11!
Which is why I personally am very much anti the blockade. I'm just a bit baffled as to why people who were very good at pointing out why the blockade didn't work think that a boycott would produce any different result amongst Israeli civilians. But, you know, whatever. Common sense really goes out the window when this topic comes up, so I shouldn't be surprised.
It's not just individual consumers not buying Jaffas (although, lets face it, who would buy Israeli oranges anyway when Spanish oranges are superior). I would go a lot further...
That's probably what the Israelis thought when they imposed the blockade, and what Hamas thought whenever they fired off a rocket, and what Israel thought when they began the assault on Gaza. So to what extent would you say that sort of thinking has produced constructive results so far?
Did white South Africans resent the boycotts - yes, they did, but what was the net effect on the boycott on the apartheid state? El Cid, yes, by themselves they are not effective - but needs to go hand in hand with other efforts. But what...
But if you agreed they did work - would you support boycotting Israel?
I am thinking more ambitiously. I'd also go with the opinions of people like Klein who've worked on globalisation and corporate behaviour and I take their judgement with credibility.
It's not about individual Jaffas or your Cape Fruit. It's about big company investments - and divesting these. It hurts the economy - and what hurts the economy hurts the government. If you believe consumer actions have any consequences - and I believe these do, then they will affect decisions relating to large-scale investment.
I imagine that boycotts would also point the finger at other states that do business in small weapons to conflicting states - and that's where we really see the poison working it's way and exploiting already explosive situations.
In the USA AIPAC buys off Senators, Congressman and even the President now who are mute to any meaningful criticism of Israel.
Thus the ordinary Christian, Jew or Muslim only has boucott. It may not be effective but democracy in the USA especially isn't about the will of the people anymore.
So how else can people make Israel see sense? They won't listen to you, they won't listen to me. They only listen to Bush, Rice and Cheney.
Even at a basic level does any elected official in the USA represent the views of ordinary Jews when they back Israel no matter what. Some Jewish people are unhappy with the actions of Israel but the voice of the community is controlled by a few right wingers.
This needs to be changed within the Jewish Community. Even Rabbi Yoffe in the USA who si viewed as a liberal is speaking out but its against those who are calling on Israel to stop.
She filled her trolley with Cape apples, Cape pears, Cape grapes. She was Caping it for all she was worth. She looked in my trolley and said 'Boycott?', I nodded. She was not impressed. 'Two reasons to ignore the boycott', she said 'Firstly, the boycott doesn't hurt the Government, it hurts those at the bottom of the food chain. Secondly, the fruit's better'.
A lot of the people actually producing the fruit in Israel are Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. I don't think they'll thank you when they're being laid off. As to whether the oranges are better from Spain or Israel, it depends on the time of the year and how you're going to use the oranges.
Do we or anyone know the net impact of boycott movement in South Africa from a researched perspective?
The spouse of a diplomat sounds really interesting but generally they are told not to discuss politics - as a rule.
My biggest objection to "whataboutery", both in the long, short and medium term, is that it achieves nothing, in real terms. It contextualises nothing. In the end all it amounts to, is about arguing the toss. I saw this process of intellectual oneupmanship happen in South Africa and it wasn't pretty. Worse still, lives were lost because of it. Everyone becomes trapped in their preset positions. The debate stagnates, reason dies. How can I agrue with people when pushed into a corner use God and Allah as a intellectual refuge of last resort. The simple answer is that I can't.
Actually, a blockade very likely would be effective, over 20-30 years.
The parts of Israel's economy dependant on trade would be hit, and so agriculture, dependant on land and water, would become more significant. So the stakes become higher, peace becomes more costly.
With less money and imports, the IDF would be slightly lower tech. They are hardly going to drop below WWII levels of ability to kill people, so the change in numbers killed won't be significant, and could go either way. What will matter is that you would see less remote targeting, more hands-on brutality.
In order to justify those actions to those who commit them, Israeli politics would have to become more insular, paranoid and racist. Just as Hamas has the politics it has because that is what is necessary to ideologically support the military tactic of suicide bombing, this neo-Israel would have the politics necessary to support deliberate unapologetic massacres.
Consequently, they would totally lose the consent to be governed of their arab and muslim citizenry, and so have to introduce some form of internal passport, deny them the vote, and heavily police them.
These would all be self-reinforcing trends: the more the West treats Israel like South Africa, Rhodesia or Serbia, the more it comes to resembles it.
It is fantastic to imagine that such a state of affairs could continue for long, that a small group of people could continue to prosper indefinitely in the face of so many bitter enemies and passive ex-allies.
In the absence of a Palestinian Mandela, you probably see an end-game where an american battle group evacuates the surviving Jews around 2030 or so.
Of course, this is all the precise opposite of what a Green like Naomi believes. The very heart of her argument is that poorer states kill fewer people: make a state poorer and it will kill less. Organic, low-tech weapons (like machetes and suicide vests) are better than nasty artificial ones involving chemicals and electronic radiation that probably give you cancer.
In other words, it is the opposite of stupid.
El Cid, I know you weren't advocating violence, but I don't agree with you that sticks get results whether you're talking about physical or economic coercion. Particularly not with Israel, which (a) grows its own food and (b) exports a lot of valuable technology which the rest of the world actually needs. As for arms - well, states get arms when they need them regardless of what sanctions are officially in force. You won't stop any state arming itself by boycotting it any more than Israel stopped Hamas from getting rockets without a port, an airstrip or free movement in and out of Gaza. I'm surprised that you're being so naive about this. Even in Gaza, where I'm told there is a major humanitarian crisis, two years of blockading hasn't broken Palestinian resolve. A boycott wouldn't hurt Israel enough to coerce it into doing what you want it to do, but it will antagonise both government and civilians into ignoring what you have to say.
Halima, I don't think that boycotts work or are morally right, because they result in collateral damage to civilians and amount to collective punishment; but even if I thought they worked or were justifiable, I would not support a boycott of Israel unless Hamas was also being boycotted by the states which currently bankroll its weaponry - for the very simple reason, as I have said elsewhere, that it is not "peace" when the powerful side stops firing if the less powerful side doesn't stop.
Economic hardship makes people more inclined to go to war, not less. It doesn't exactly calm people down or encourage them to relax. I think that the Palestinian reaction to the blockade rather bears that out. Happy people have more perspective and are more inclined to negotiate. Which is why I would be in favour of both sides stopping what they're doing, Israel lifting the blockade and helping to fix up the infrastructure it's been destroying, and Gazan civilians actually getting the benefit of the aid that's supposed to be spent on them rather than weapons.
I think that's going to be my final word on IP generally. I looked back through my comments and I just seem to be repeating the same things over and over, but getting more and more upset about it. It's pointless. I can't influence the outcome of this particular conflict, frankly, but I can stop myself from having a nervous breakdown over it, and I think the best way to do that is to take a break.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letter...
I remember my mother telling my father about this when it happened, Halima, so I hope you're not suggesting she made it up? :-)
You don't approve of the comments made about the rally on Sunday and you don't approve of a boycott. So Israel sees nothing, hears nothign and carries on its plan to carve up the West Bank and blockade Gaza and effectively and slowly strangle an entire people from the conciousness of the world.
What do you suggest we do?
How do Palestinians attain freedom when even liberals such as yourself are vetoing every action proposed?
Israel isn't listenting and its actions are war crimes and genocide and that can only bring more problems for Jews worldwide as this goes on and people see this. But people can't vent their frustration by boycotting events or criticising Pro-Israel marches.
It may hurt the Palestinians but a boycott will help bring their freedom. Thats why Israel is so scared of academic and goods boycotts.
Israel is the one who can bring peace because it has power. It isn't willing to so it has to be forced to.
That said, what Dude said about America (not sure what the rest of the West has got to do with it) withdrawing its safety net from Israel i.e. cutting back on aid and military supplies would also work.
Mind you, it would help if the Russians and Chinese also applied some pressure on Iran (a big part of the problem) and the Arabs.
Why is it the United States that always has to play world policeman? So it can be slapped again and again by the liberatti?
What about a joint economic, sporting, and cultural boycott of Israel AND Iran?
Really? Like what?
The Jewish Chronicle Editor lambasts an article in The Guardian:
Israel barks, the US media wags its tail
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/ja...
Peter Preston highlights how much of the US media takes a one sided approach, and in his article he highlights that the Telegraph is Pro-Israel and the Independant is Pro-Palestinian and some of the others are in between.
He cites examples of Israeli rhetoric in US Newspapers.
Overall not a bad article.
But Stephen Pollard doesn't see it that way and says:
Jews control the media, says former Guardian editor
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/jews-control-medi...
A pretty unbalanced start by Stephen Pollard when Robert Preston said Israel Barks but no its better to change this to Jews Control to really bring out the defensive side.
Then Pollard goes on to laughably claim:
"It would never occur to the likes of Peter Preston that the American media might simply be more willing to take a rounded virew of the Middle East, and accept that Israel has a right to defend itself. "
He says that the USA Media is more rounded - it isn't it is almost completely Pro-Israeli. What a joke and what a way to whip the line in the Jewish Community where people had started speaking out.
Imran, it might shock you to know that Jews in the UK have the ability to gather information from a wide range of places and are not limited to reading just The JC.
That said, I'm pretty much in agreement with Pollard. Nasty little article from Preston, but we've seen it all before..yawn.
Make up your mind. Your reasoning (or lack of it) is very mixed up. In your first paragraph you successfully agrue that boycotting Israel wouldn't work for several well thought out reasons. Your illustration of Israel's failed attempt to break HAMAS (via the boycott route) is a case in point. Then by the second paragraph you throw it all away by advocating that for boycott to work they have to be equally applied. What ruddish! You've already said that Israel would do what it would have to do in arming itself through fair means or foul. Fair comment! But if such a boycott was to be implemented, we would be signing the death warrant of the Palestinian people. Now who exactly is being "naive"?
One of the reasons I don't want to post on this anymore is because people don't even bother to read what I've said before they start laying into me.
Israel exports telecommunications equipment, software development and integral circuitry. That doesn't include its academic "exports" in the fields of medicine, science and technology. I would have thought that anyone advocating a boycott would have looked up what they were boycotting first, but that's that whole "common sense" thing again, I suppose.
Cancer detection technology, irrigation technology, mobile phone technology, Tsunami and earthquake warning systems..the list goes on..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e6xj_V_Luro&NR=1
Shocking viewing
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VWC6hSTHyxY
Actually I didn't say that Jews didn't gather info from other sources. What I said was that the community news lines are trying to direct down a set road.
As regards Pollard his response was utter nonsense and hysteria. In fact I'd say your response was a better response than having to resort to the tactics that Pollard chose to take.
Pollard should have highlighted as you did that the Jewish community is more adept than Preston or even Pollard himself think.
Pollard is ruining The JC which was a good paper before. I used to like The JC but Pollard is ruining the enjoyment that us Gentiles use to get from reading it.
What are community "news lines"? It's an opinion piece anyway, anyone can see that.
Genocide builds nothing. Most native Americans died from innocuous Old World 'diseases' like the common cold.
Those stories about smallpox infected blankets are myths
America is the product of industrious, skilled, disciplined individuals who had foresight and vision. It is humanity's greatest success story, so stop being so jealous.
And amid talk of boycotts and such, I think the only solution to the current situation is for Hamas to cease and desist with its homemade rockets.
The Gazan Arabs are being handed their collective asses on a platter, and unlike in 2006 with Hezbollah, many Arab countries in the region aren't supporting Hamas.
In fact, Gazan Arabs themselves are now beginning to overtly criticise and denounce the misery Hamas has wrought. They're beginning to realise their actions are self-defeating; akin to so many chickens cheering a KFC opening.
So I am somewhat hopeful the hostilities may end before too many feathers are plucked.
They've continued to carve up the land and steal land to build.
Oh puhlease!
Just this morning a Gazan Christian posted a web video showing Hamas breaking up a wedding last summer because the participants, and bride and groom, were Chistian and were singing.
Imagine how outrageous and obscene it is to sing at a wedding?
One should only sing at funerals.
They fired just over the heads of the revellers, (there were many, many SMALL children present) bulldozed all the tables and chairs, and then beat the groom to a pulp.
It was a real party.
And we are all Hamas now!
I would like to ask a question. How many extra-judicial killings have been carried out by Hamas since the hositlities began? I've heard the figure is around 50. When chaos explodes, it always provides cover AND justification to settle those old clan rivalries, you know.
As El Cid pointed out, academic boycotts are petty and counter-productive. As often as not the boycott will affect progressive Israelis as much as hard-liners.
Sporting and cultural boycotts? What is there to boycott? When was the last time anyone can remember attending an Israeli cultural or sporting event? OK, maybe one or two, but those people are unlikely to support a boycott. So do what? Refuse to play football and give Israel nul points on Eurovision?
Agricultural produce? as Katy and CW have said, that will impact first on those at the bottom of the heap and besides will only be effecive on products identified as Israeli and what proportion of shoppers will give it a second thought?
Boycott Israeli expertise in pharmaceuticals, software, geo-thermals, solar power, water conservation? Who will that benefit? And how does one boycott knowledge?
If the intention is to damage the Israeli economy the impact will be slight and any damage easily made up by US subsidies. If it is to raise awareness, it's the wrong way to go about it. You don't persuade someone of something by giving them the cold shoulder, you have to engage.
Israel has always existed in the knowledge that it is surrounded by those dedicated to its extinction. It's all very well to say that Hammas do not (yet) have the capability to effect that, or that Iran didn't (really) mean what it said about wiping it off the map. Israelis have good reason to take these existential threats seriously.
Palestinians also face a real and present threat to their existence. I'm baffled that the Israeli government doesn't seem to see what that threat can do to a people.
The situation is horrible and on the information we have so far I accept that the term 'war crimes' may be appropriate for some of the actions of the IDF. The blockade itself may well be considered a crime against humanity. But you don't get someone to show restraint by backing them into a corner and confirming their belief that their extinction is the desired outcome. Both sides feel that and both sides have good reason. Why would either side listen to anyone who did not make it unequivocal that they will not accept such an extinction?
I don't see why Israel should listen to the views of anyone or any nation or group which does not make it explicit that they are fully and permanently committed to Israel's right to exist. Nor do I see why Palestinians should not have the same entitlement.
Israel broke the truce and that resulted in rocket fire. Israel builds settlements and claims it wants peace. The rockets and everythign else is the result of frustration and the sense of despair as people see any hope for a solution disappear.
Israel is the one destroying hope for peace by violating continually land that forms part of any solution.
Until Israel which is the major military power decides it wants peace then nothing can be achieved.
It hides its crimes from the world aided by apologetics who always hide behind Hamas does this and that. A Hamas you won't recognise until it suits you.
I beg to differ. Would you like to see a list of all the rockets which landed inside Israel during this supposed "truce"?
Or should we patronise the Palestinians and say that they cannot take responsibility for their actions?
And the Arab World exists under a threat from Israel which won't define its borders and is egged on by Evangelicals who want to see a second coming by wiping the Arabs of the face of the earth.
So the Arab world is faced with an even bigger threat that is dedicated to its extinction and is backed by two nuclear armed allies who are not afraid to use their military might to get their way.
Everf considered that as a reason the Arabs are freaful of Israel.
You are what you partner with and Israel is in bed with groups dedicated to the eradication of Islam and to war in the middle east to meet their religious goals of the return of their messiah.
So Arabs face a far greater threat from Israel and the USA than the other way round.
And before you say they are unlikely to do that Israel egged on Bush to lie and make war in Iraq under pretence it and the USA were under threat from WMD's which never existed. Bush, Rice and Cheney then sent Powell to lie and deceive the UN and backed by an Evangelicqal Catholic in Blair who didn't give a damn about the view of his own country men and women went to war and massacred people and set-up their own kangaroo courts.
So who is a bigger threat to who?
The rockets were a response to the blockade and other Israeli military actions.
"Or should we patronise the Palestinians and say that they cannot take responsibility for their actions?"
No they shouldn't be firing rockets and need to be accountable but they are held to a far harsher account than Israel.
Both sides need to stop pretending they have bigger dicks and sort out this bloody mess considering the fact they both stupid.
And they don't need to be egged on by the USA or the Arab world to pretend they can win.
Boycott them both and make them make peace.
No, the rockets started long before the blockade. In fact, they were landing in Israel almost immediately after Israel withdrew from Gaza.
I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the escalations of violence, I'm not sure what the answer is, but it's not boycotts.
Absolutely.
Would anyone here care about the skewed views of an individual who intended to kill you?
You are what you partner with and Israel is in bed with groups dedicated to the eradication of Islam and to war in the middle east to meet their religious goals of the return of their messiah.
Yes, the same groups that spent 10 years, billions of dollars and 1000s of lives to save muslim ass in The Balkans are dedicated to the eradication of Islam.
May I say something equally silly?
When you pray, did it ever occur to you that your face is tilted downwards in the direction of SATAN and HELL, and that your bottom, an unclean part of the human body, is up in the air facing (MOCKING) god?
During many anti-Israel demos, some of the muslim participants chanted hate-filled slogans against Jews and then stopped and dropped to mock the god of both Jews and Christians.
These radicals need those precious moments to re-engage with their deity in order to recharge their hate, don't they?
They sipped at the teat of satan,
and then spat out the vile contents.
How's that for 'evangelical'?
Yes the Palestinians have fought back, courageous and united in the oldest human struggle - to be free. Stateless and humiliated for so long, they've risen up against Israel's huge military machine, although they themselves have no arm, no tanks, no American planes and gun ships or missiles.
Some have committed desperate acts of terror, like suicide bombing. But for Palestinians, the overriding, routine terror, day after day, has been the ruthless control of almost every aspect of their lives, as if they live in an open prison.
These Zionist Israelis who suffered at the hands of Hitler's Nazi regime, have now increased their own Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing against Palestinian people. Not all Zionists or Israelis support these atrocities, but those Zionists and Israelis that do War on Palestine are effectively the new Nazis, the real Terrorists!!
Even when this invasion ends, the Israeli War on Gaza and Palestine will continue under another excuse no doubt, with whatever missions its corrupt leaders want to accomplish under the surface there. When will the global community speak up and demand that this violence and oppression ceases?
World Leaders must immediately act to cease Israel's bombing, siege, invasion, oppression, occupation and apartheid of Palestine and Gaza.
Israel, with use of sanctions and declarations of War against it if necessary, must return to its pre-1967 borders, withdraw from ALL Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem), allow Palestine to control its own borders and recognise Palestinian rights, including the rights to life, freedom, movement and the return to homelands.
Until this is achieved all political, economic and military aid, trade and support to Israel need to cease (including cultural and sporting isolation), that the Palestinian causes be defended, that the brutal Israeli/Zionist War crimes be denounced and that the oppressive Israeli policy of illegal expansion and oppression in Palestine be criticised.
These king of Christian fascist nutters back Israel, nuff said.
I remember my mother telling my father about this when it happened, Halima, so I hope you’re not suggesting she made it up? :-)"
Katy I wasn't doubting your mother - just pointing out that diplomats and their kin shouldn't be quoted in public domains - it gets them into trouble!
As to your point about boycotts. It sounds to me that you're saying you'd support a boycott of Israel if one was equally applied to Hamas. I'd say fair point. I'd boycott both for their actions. Still in the real world a boycott might not be effective - but never say never. I am sure there were many people on South Africa who claimed it wouldn't work - and perhaps after 15-20 years, the same people acceded it might work. Time will tell. I believe it will happen - the world will wake up and not wait on the Americans to broker peace on everything.
Those stories about smallpox infected blankets are myth"
Fucking christofascist nutter.
You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum.
from here
Jamaal and Imran, do you support Hamas? Perhaps you are from their propaganda department?
Here's a thought, why don't you support the Palestinian people so that they can live in a peaceful tolerant and economically thriving society alongside Israel? A bit more of a boring aim I suppose, when you can scream blue murder at the 'Zionists'!
Have you read anything Sunny said in this article?
"If you can only see the humanity of one side and never the other, one side of the history, and one side of the suffering. If everything you say is to point the finger of blame at the baddies and exonerate the goodies. If you haven’t had a new point to make for five, ten or sixty years."
"You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum" - SE. If only you understood the concept of irony!
Both sides are to blame for everything not just the escalations. In terms of boycott I wasn't referring to the people or products but I think the Govts for both should be boycotted from all institutions until they learn to live with each other.
Probably not viable as a solution but it may teach them a lesson.
Do you actually believe the nonsense you write?! Seriously how can you say Israel is seeking perace when Israel is building on an unprecedented scale in the West Bank. Look at the Peace Now website.
Israeli Arabs are equal citizens - are you stupid? Almost every govt including Sharon's admitted they were neglected and deprived and needed more help. I mean your live in a Meir Khanane fantasy world.
Of the Palestinians in the West Bank 98 Percent live in a tiny percentage of the land, with the rest controlled by the IDF and every movement controlled and linked to the fate of your land stealers.
So all in all your statements are fictional nonsense not based on facts on the ground.
As to your assertion - I do not support Hamas and am not from their propoganda dept. That is typical zionist slurs when you lose arguments.
I wouldn't even have replied to your nonsense but you were posting so much I felt compelled to let you have a taste of your own medicine.
I regard both sides as equally guilty for this mess. I am harder on Israel because it has more power to make the necessary change and won't. Israel has failed the peace because it won't give the Palestinians a real chance. That said the Palestinians are fools for what they do and for the corruption they have.
At the end of the day it is the ordinary people who suffer because the politicians on both sides won't back down from unsustainable positions.
Can Israel defeat the Palestinians - No.
Can the Palestinians defeat Israel - No.
So the only way to win is by N-E-G-O-T-I-A-T-I-O-N-S which is something you are in denial about because you keep posting right wing Israeli propoganda.
Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible.
P.S.
This is not a comment on Israeli, let alone Jewish, ingenuity.
The Danish boycott resulted in many Danish exports increasing. The lists of "things to boycott" were circulated amongst supporters of free speech, and those products were specifically bought.
Go for it, if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect the whole world to do the same.
Where , quote Wiki to be lazy, the 'United States Embargo against Cuba is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed on the Castro government on February 7, 1962. The embargo was enacted after the Castro government expropriated the properties of United States citizens and corporations (notably those that belonged to the United Fruit Company and the ITT).
The embargo was codified into law in 1992 with the stated purpose of "bringing democracy to the Cuban people", and in fact is entitled the Cuban Democracy Act. In 1996, Congress passed the Helms-Burton Act, which further restricted United States citizens from doing business in or with Cuba, and mandated restrictions on giving public or private assistance to any successor regime in Havana unless and until certain claims against the Cuban government are met. In 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton modified the trade embargo by requiring that foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies stop trading with Cuba. He also authorized the sale of certain US products to Cuba.
At present, the embargo, which limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests, is still in effect and is the most enduring trade embargo in modern history.'
The Cuban government probably hasn't committed many crimes against American interests but still these policies are in place... against Cuba. And I'd argue the embargo here is working... and the point of sanctions and embargoes is that it takes time to work, hurt and impact.
You have to understand these people don't consider brown people human.
Yeah, but Israel has deeply ingrained Millwallitis.
i.e. "No-one likes us we don't care.". I would probably too if I was one of its citizens. Ironically, I can see that. But that is bye the bye. Enough already.
Israel could be made "to care" by hitting them hard in the pocket and in the soul, forcing them to understand that a tipping point had long been passed and that they could no longer rely on the legacy of WW2 (inc. European guilt) to see them through.
Don, yes, I would suspend Israel from UEFA and sporting organisations, for a start. Humiliate them (the men if not the women). Trust me, they would be hugely offended. Fuck em. Let them know that they are not worthy to sit at the same table as the rest of us until their behaviour improves.
But the more I think about it, the more I would target Iran too, treat them similarly. Hence Russian and Chinese cooperation would be crucial.
If there was enough political will, Israel and Iran could be made to yield. Unfortunately there isn't. But from little acorns..
Imran, what part of "I don't approve of boycotts and I don't think they work" do you not understand?
You deserve to be locked in a mental asylum
Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last evening.
And were I to have the choice of mental asylum, could it please be the Gaza Strip?
Yes the Palestinians have fought back, courageous and united in the oldest human struggle - to be free. Stateless and humiliated for so long, they’ve risen up against Israel’s huge military machine, although they themselves have no arm, no tanks, no American planes and gun ships or missiles.
*Sniff*
I was around back in '67, and the term "Palestinian" simply didn't even exist. At the time the term used was "Transjordanian" or simply "Arab". There is no such thing as a Palestinian people or a Palestinian culture or a Palestinian history that is in any way distinct from those of the other Arabs nearby. They were only re-branded as "Palestinian" back in the late60s/early70s.
And the fact Hamas has no tanks or gunships or missiles doesn't make them look like heroic underdogs, just disproportionately stupid, primitive and backward idiots.
Besides, who needs tanks and gunships when you can avail yourself, and quite demonically, of some 1.2 million captive human shields?
It is such a sick and macabre game to continually and ceaselessly goad Israel into reacting, and to then feign apoplectic outrage when the resulting and altogether expected casualties accumulate.
I see through the ruse and realise that despite the violence, death and destruction, it is simply pointless to waste sympathy on this 'cause', and I am not the only one.
The best way to gauge Hamas' *character-content* is to examine the way in which they treat Gazan Christians, a community that numbers barely 3,000 individuals.
Last year Hamas operatives, blew up the only christian bookshop in Gaza, and killed both the owner and his shop-assistant. Apparently, several Muslim Gazans had expressed interest in Christianity, and given the behavior demonstrated by the Islamists in Hamas, who the hell wouldn't?
But that wasn't the end. Gazan Christians whom, we should remember, bear the brunt of Israeli air-strikes as well, also had a YMCA where Christian boys and girls could hang out, shoot some pool and socialise.
For Hamas, though, that "Y" was a den of inequity, the aboooode of Satan, and so they decided to blow it up as well!
A jolly good time was had by all.
Here we go with the usual rubbish.
Sorry I didn't see that comment from you.
What thinketh thou, Imram?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0njhAjeRuv4&...
Thus a boycott harms both sides and is counter-productive.
It isn't about the fact some evangelicals will move to buy some Israeli foodstuff.
The point is a boycott won't work and isn't sustainable and essentially it puts lives on both sides at stake by denying basic needs for all.
If the Muslim world were to boycott medicine and medical equipment produced in Israel it would have an affect but it would harm both sides therefore it is counter productive.
The reason the boycott in South Africa had some effect was because they didn't produce things vital to the basic needs of the boycotters.
What is needed is a concerted push to peace with real purpose.
As part of this industrial zones in Israel Palestine are set-up for joint business ventures to improve the lives of people so they have prospects for prosperity.
That helps to move them both out of this mess.
Pray tell me who are the people in the video because earlier you said there was no such thing as Palestinians and they were invented!
Your solution is one of denial of the other side so people don't give a shit.
I don't support anyone killing anyone is that sooooo hard for you to comprehend?
Kadima + Labour + Likud + Hamas + Fatah = BAD FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE
It is a simple equation.
Gazan Arabs. I've used that description several times. What are your thoughts on the content of those videos?
I must say that I tend to agree with your equation of what's bad for ordinary people, although I'd add religious fundamentalism to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEDj7MweBs
I don't believe it was due to singing - it was the conflict between the two sides. Unless, a different video can be produced?
If you want me to say more I will. This is a battle for control by people who have no interest in peace, justice, religion or freedom.
It is simply a mad grab for power.
There is no such thing as religious fundementalism because when one gets to the stage of fundementalism one has lost sight of religious values and then one will do anything in the name of religion even if it is prohibited.
Religion doesn't sanction the actions of fundementalists they just deviate it to think it does.
George Bush said his war was inspired by God, but it wasn't God didn't tell him to invade Iraq and cause misery and havoc.
Fundementalists give religion a bad name.
sorry
I
missed
you
spacebar
seems
to
havepacked
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:-)
Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible.'
Exactly
Israel's rights to exist comes up time and time again, but its existance is based on ethnic cleansing; yet demands its status as the 'Jewish state' be preserved, and reversing the expulsiion of Palestinians would mean an end of its existance. Its like if i nicked a car and said if i gave it back i couldnt get to work therefore i must be allowed to keep it!
I cant see the Palestinians ever giving up the right to their freedom, their statehood and their right to go home. Israel needs the violence and 'terrorism' as a cover to continue its crimes, if everyone was nice about it, what excuse would it have?
This blog of a UK doctor visiting Jerusalem was quite an eye opener to how the Palestinians are treated - just imagine if it was you in their shoes... with the President of the US saying 'well the realities on the ground have changed' and noone likely to make a difference.
So to go back to the point of the thread, what about rockets...what about roadblocks...... its about the occupation, the rest are all by-products of the occupation or tools to enforce it or divert attention from the central issue.
Furthermore, as he admittedly furnished bogus information, I don't know why he should complain.
They are always twitchy, not least because a few years ago a pair of British Muslims carried out a suicide attack in Tel Aviv. http://www.hvk.org/articles/0503/146.html
Do not delude yourselves into thinking that the global economy could very easily do without Israel. The idea is risible.’
Exactly"
But Chairwoman that doesn't mean Israel can do what it likes and carry on as it has since '67. Thats the point. This simply can't go on as it has.
The world economy can't do without Israel and the world can't do with this conflict going on.
Israel and the Palestinians have to find a way to live together and for that Israel as state has to be held to account for its occupation.
Both sides paying lip service to a two state solution and not to getting there isn't helping either party.
How long if this continues can Israel rely upon your support?
Thats my point that Israel's support is cracking in its own communities.
No I didn't question that. I meant how long will you support Israel in what it does against the West Bank and Gaza?
If this continues then Israel will lose support amongst World Jewry for its actions.
Hence my point that with what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank how long can Israel rely on your support for its policies there?
its the occupation... not about some tourist lying to immigration thats the issue, the occupation is what needs to be addressed, its the people who are waiting to go home who need answers, Israel continues to divert the issue and its suporters continue the whataboutery - we are not blind and the Palestinians will never ever give up. No justice, no peace.
But why strive for balance, eh?
NEVER NEVER NEVER
VICTORY TO THE RESISANT!
The ‘resistance’ which prides itself on killing innocent people. What a nice human being you are. The scum really does come out of the wood work on the I/P conflict!
didn't take long for the MOSSAD to respond.
When your house has been occupied by blood thirsty facist vultures then resistant is justifiied
What, like "wrinkle-resistant"?
No, like the Gazans resistant
But it was too late to re-edit by the time I noticed.
An easy goal to put away but a meaningless one.
You know what I meant madam.
Imran,
The world economy can do without Israel. Trust me.
I've just re-read Halima's post (No: 32) along with your own but I'm sorry my point still stands. If someone is going to lead you down a blind alley, do yourself a favour and DON"T FOLLOW THEM. The consequences of your post would have meant the Palestinian being deprived of the means to defend themselves. It was this I was objecting to and nothing else.
There is a time and a place for everything and that includes BOYCOTTS and the like. Right now, in the current situation, I tend to be in agreement with you regarding the rights and wrongs of BOYCOTTING. I simply can't see them working, period.
El Cid
I think anyone who thinks that the world (in it's present economic dire strait) could do without the innovation coming out of Israel is nothing short of crazy. Period! But neither is Israel's economy (in the log term) indispensable. Nothing in life is. The world will keep on turning even after we are all dead.
Your love for Israel is killing the very thing you love as surely as day follows night. What Israel needs now is a reality check and a healthy dose of tough love and humble pie. BTW: The Palestinians need exactly the same thing. Your entrenched position negates the fact that the hole you're in is filling up with water. You can either choose to stay in the hole and drown or you could choose to get out of it and set your feet on terra firma. Your choice. Choose wisely.
I'd add that the world will keep on turning after we've all been dead - and after the American economy ,too , has eclipsed ( we're in the middle of this downward spiral right now) .. and it seems to be so much of our responses to world crisis is based on calculations of what the Americans will or won't do. That's putting an awful lot of faith in one place. It's almost a leap of faith as people leaving god to sort things out. We need to get out of what i'd call , for want of a better word, presentisim, it blinds us to making solutions work because it won't work now or hasn't in the past. With renewed political will, the same solutions can be enforced. We don't need new ideas for solving Israel Palestine. It's not rocket science, it's political will that's missing.
Chairwoman , you got me! Respect.
My answer was entirely accurate. At no time have I said that I support the current action of the Israeli Government.
Neither did I support the US/UK invasion of Iraq which made absolutely no sense whatsoever, and was certainly of no advantage to Israel, though of course, it was to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
But I de-railed. Forgive me :-)
But I still support and always will support the existence of the State of Israel. I have to, because when hotheads such as SE become the majority, and life becomes more 'difficult' for Jews in this country, I would rather go to a besieged Israel than wherever SE has in store for me.
Please don't say it can't happen here, who would have thought it could have happened in Germany while I was in my mother's womb?
Economically, it is dispensible in the short-term. Trust me.
I hear where you're coming from (and where you're going to). That's what I think about South Africa. It's the one place where I would run to if ever I thought that the safety of me and my family became untenable in the UK, but only in very, very extreme circumstances would I want white people run out of South Africa as a response of me being run out of the UK. You see, two wrongs don't make a right.
It shouldn't be forgotten that one of the (secret) friends and supporters of the Apartheid Regime was the State of Israel. They supplied both arms, logistics and intelligence to Pretoria for years (breaking the UN arms embargo) before the liberation. So not all of Israel's exports were a good thing.
Please don’t say it can’t happen here, who would have thought it could have happened in Germany while I was in my mother’s womb?"
Well I hope it doesn't become difficult for Jews anywhere or Muslims or Christians or anyone anywhere.
I wouldn't say it can't happen but I would say we need to work to avoid it.
As I said we need to work towards events to bring together Jews and Muslims and remind them that they have a shared history. Yes there are episodes which are not good but there are also good times.
Bring people together and have a greater understanding of each other.
BTW I do understand what you are saying and am trying to support you with project ideas and also help to continue your quest to find out more about your family who persished at Nazi hands. I may not be of much use but I'll try :-)
The Little Dickie Silverstein Marching Song
I am a little kapo,
It makes my mommy mad,
Cause when I am a kapo,
Those Zionists get sad!
I celebrate the jihad,
and terror all the while,
I fill my blog and web page,
With loud salutes of Sieg Heil!
I want to see them Zraelis,
All dumped out in the sea,
My swastika a waving,
Cause everything’s bout me.
Tsh, gotta go to a funeral for some laughs after reading that.